http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/

This shows percentage probabilities for different calibers

More statistics, more descriptive.

http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir10/excs78.txt

Did you notice he tested only 5 loads with the .45 but tested around 10 with the 9mm and .357 Mag? Not doubting his results as it is not the first time I have heard that. However When doing a scientific test you should use the same type of round and the same manufacture if possable not 9mm JHP vs .45 Ball. I do agree with his assessment that a handgun is only good for fighting you way to a rifle.

Tim

What I gathered from the second link is which loads are more lethal on the average, I think it's a helpful tool if you're concerned about what you use in your carry piece, Ayoob helped him with the data. The first link doesn't have any info on the 44 magnum but it's probably not carried a lot. Regardless of how they compare 45's to 9mm's we all know the 45 is a better stopper.

The FBI did an extensive *scientific* study on this very subject:

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

Conclusion: Shot placement is more important than any other factor. Shoot a guy a few times with a 45 and miss all the vitals, and there will be little effect. Shoot a guy once in the brain or CNS with anything, and he's going down NOW.

In another thread where I inquired about stopping power, others stated that in the hunting of animals, 45's were no more magical at stopping the animal than anything else when bullet placement was poor and missed vitals.

A 124g FMJ 9mm has a muzzle energy of about 345 ft-lbs, and an energy of about 227 ft-lbs at 150 yds. The same numbers for a 230gr FMJ 45 ACP are 369 and 276 ft-lbs, respectively (these numbers are all for Federal ammo). That 10% difference at the muzzle would appear to be statistically meaningless in "knock down power".

With all that said, I'm still willing to be convinced that a 45 has superior knock-down power. There just doesn't seem to be any scientific reason it should. Please, point out the error of my ways! (Limited to THIS subject, please! )

Regards,
--Hawk

I'm a firm believer that a 357 or 44 magnum will have more of an effect in non vitals than some rounds will in vital areas. Simply because some won't make it through to the vitals. With the magnum rounds shot placement isn't as critical as it is with smaller, lighter loads, but still important. With a .32 or .380 auto I would think your placement would have to be perfect.

I do agree that a 44 Magnum with JHP's will cause lots more damage than a 9mm FMJ, due to the fragmentation effects. I also agree that it's harder to get a 32 or 380 round to the vitals than a 45 or 9mm. However, what I was talking about (mostly) above was the difference in 9mm and 45 FMJs, not magnums with hollowpoints.

Cheers,
--Hawk

Personally RedHawk I am not going to take a shot at 150yds like your data shows. Most shots will be within 30ft. So muzzle velocity does play a big part.

Tim

Hardcore:
Nor would I. The point of the 150 yd. data was to show that a 9mm round's energy falls off faster than that of a 45, nothing else. I figured if I didn't point this out, someone else would. At 50 yards, the muzzle energies for 45 and 9mm are 334 and 291 ft-lbs, respectively. Thus, the difference in engeries is:

Muzzle: 24 ft-lbs
50 yds: 43 ft-lbs
150 yds: 49 ft-lbs

So most of the fall off is between the muzzle and 50 yds.

Cheers,
--Hawk

Remember when you were a kid growing up playing baseball? Ever get beaned with a fastball some kid was throwing around the 70 MPH range? Yeah it kinda hurt, but now imagine being hit with a bowling ball at 70 MPH.
That's the comparison I like to make between a 9mm and a 45. 'Nuf said???

No, not enough. Because a bowling ball is many times the mass of a baseball. A 45 round is not even twice the mass of a 9mm round (1.85x to be precise), and has a muzzle velocity SLOWER by 1.32x (a full 270 fps slower). So your "analogy" is totally wrong, by any measurable quantity. Don't be offended, but it's incorrect analogies like this that perpetuate myths.

Regards,
--Hawk

Easy Hawk.
You're right, from a scientific ratio standpoint, I know the analogy is inaccurate.
I find it humorous though, and always throw it out there when the 9mm/45 debate comes up at work.
That being said, it would still hurt getting hit with a bowling ball travelling say 50 MPH would it not??
If you're really stuck on accurate ratios however, let's call it a 50 MPH croquette ball. Still gonna hurt, and have more foot pounds of energy delivered on target.
My analogy was tongue-in-cheek humor at an age-old debate.



"Knockdown power" is sometimes overrated. Many times, the frontal area of a bullet has more to do with terminal wound ballistics than does Ft.Lbs, though they do work hand in hand.



Shot placement is ALWAYS paramount. if you miss the vitals, it typically makes no difference which caliber it came from, 9mm or .45, though the 45 will "generally" create a larger permanent wound channel, due to a larger frontal area on expansion.

Now we're getting somewhere! If the 45 tends to tumble more than a 9mm on impact, I would have to agree that the 45 has better stopping power, due to the much larger permanent wound channel created by a tumbling bullet vs. one that just goes through the target. In this debate, I mostly see people claiming better stopping power based on the heavier bullet or just based on intuition or some other non-quantifiable parameter. I don't want to make anyone mad, but just because you shoot a bad guy with a 45 and he goes down doesn't mean a 45 has the best stopping power. To do a true battlefield test, you'd have to shoot identical twin bad guys at the same distance with a 9mm fired at one and a 45 at the other, with the bullets impacting in the same place, and compare the results. Not a test that is likely to happen

I can't find a study that shows the terminal performance of the 45 FMJ. Anybody got one?

Regards,
--Hawk

Guys, I have always been a proponent of shot placement vs 'stopping power'. In my career as a police officer and firefighter, spans 26 years, I've seen people shot with every thing from a .22 short to a .30-06 and where the bullet hit made a lot more difference it's size or stopping power.

For instance:
Adult male shot thru and thru the upper mandible side of the jaw with a .308 at about 25m. Removed his tongue, shattered his palate, blew out most of his teeth and right eye. Survived and works a steady job.

Adult male shot with a .25 ACP thru a hollow core wood door, stuck in the heart, 2 steps off the porch, dead.

Adult male shot in the throat with a .45ACP 200gr HP at 13ft. Trachea slowed the bullet to the point it didn't break the spine. Survived.

Adult male shot with a .223 FMJ one inch below right eye, one inch right of the nose, frontal hit. DRT

Adult female shot with a .22lr at arms length (shoot out with both parties guns almost muzzle to muzzle) in the right side of the head. Survived, handicaped. She turned her head.

Adult male shot with a .22lr at arms length ( other party of above shoot out) hit in forehead 1 inch left of center. DRT He didn't turn his head.

Adult male shot 3 times, 2 solid off-center chest, 1 angled thru the right chest and into the right arm with a 200gr hp .45 ACP. Survived.

Adult male shot 1 time 9mm 147gr HP thru the sternum into the heart. DRT.

Adult male shot 2 times with a .357 158gr JHP, one in the thoat above the vest, one in the left arm 1 inch above the elbow almost severed the arm. Survived quadraphegic, ( this young man is a good friend of mine, police officer in my town.)

Adult male shot dead center of the forehead with a .25ACP. Walked into the ER and told us he was shot. Bullet was still visable under the skin.

I've seen many more including an adult male who accidentally blew his own genitals off with a .44 mag. He went into shock and died before the ambulance could arrive 12 min later.

Some of these people were just lucky to survive, some unlucky. As you can tell the caliber didn't make as much difference as POI and the path the bullet takes thru the body. The mental state and adrenaline and drug level of the person shot makes a difference also.

I carry a pistol every day and am pretty confident with one. If the SHTF I will never be beyond arms reach of a rifle.

Rob

"I've seen many more including an adult male who accidentally blew his own genitals off with a .44 mag. He went into shock and died before the ambulance could arrive 12 min later."

That's one accident I can live without

The difference I see between 9mm and 45acp is, the 9mm is a van, and the 45 is a small dump truck, roll them into a brick wall from 50ft, the van will be going a little faster but will only do minimal damage, the small dump truck which is only a little bigger, but heavier and with more mass will go through that wall. Kinetic energy at work.

Interesting theory, but as the data I posted above shows, the energy difference between the two is not significant enough to matter. Your analogy is almost as bad as Bravo's. Vans typically gross out around 2.5 tons, small dump truck is probably around 3-4x as massive. Next theory, please?
Cheers,
--Hawk

Since my last post I've been digging thru my records for an actual count of 9mm vs 45 shoots. These are only from my county and the county next to mine where a LEO friend has provided some of the data, in fact he was the Deputy that shot the suspect in the throat with the .45 that surived.

The area I live in, Cent OKLA, if the officers are allowed to select or carry their own weapons, most have chosen a .45 for years. Slowly I'm seeing a change to the .40 and 9mm weapons but nothing dramatic. Remember this is not reflective of the whole country, they probably shoot more people in NY and LA in a week than our whole state shoot in a year.

Out of the 12 shootings, between the 9mm and 45, that I've got documented accurate data on, there were 7 vs 5 - 45 vs 9mm. But there were 2 more fatalities with the 9mm than the 45, 4-9mm 2-45. All of the fatalities were multiple shot, except 1 of the 9mms was a one-shot stop.

45:
1- 2 shots cent mass
1- 2 shots, 1 center mass, 1 head

9mm:
1- 1 shot heart
1- 2 shots center mass
1- 2 shots, 1 center mass, 1 throat
1- 2 shots head (I've shot with this officer for years and he can make a double action revolver sound like a machine gun going off, let alone a semi-auto. Either of the 2 shots would have eliminated the suspect, but he put 2 in the head before the guy could blink. So it's technially a 2 shot stop)

I know that these figures don't show alot, but they at least show the 9mm can hold it's own with a .45, if you put the bullets in the right place.
And the .45 can't if you don't.

Rob

I just think heavier is better, it lets them know you're there

My favorite carry piece is a S&W 629 and a CZ-52 in 7.62x25 here and there. The first one's performance speaks for itself, and the Tokarev is very fast with a lack of ft/lbs. It goes against my heavier is better theory but something is better than nothing

(quote)
"I've seen many more including an adult male who accidentally blew his own genitals off with a .44 mag. He went into shock and died before the ambulance could arrive 12 min later."


(quote)Schmidt_Rubin
>That's one accident I can live without<


This was an adult black male who was out shooting with his pals, cowboying it up.
He stuck a cocked Ruger SuperBlackhawk in the front of his pants, while one of his buddies was yelling the gun was cocked. They said they think he pulled the trigger while he was trying to get the cocked pistol out of his pants. The bullet literally blew everything, and I mean everything off, and then struck him in the left foot. My partner and I were less than 2 miles away when we got the call, one of his friends had a cel phone, figure our arrival at about 4 min after the shot. He was already in shock and went into cardiac arrest about 3 min after we got there.
Bummer.

Rob

I agree Schmidt, something is always better than nothing! I'll probably be getting a CZ-52 soon myownself. From what I understand, you can take out bad guys not only in front of you, but also with the ejected brass 30 feet to the right rear of your position LOL.

Rob:
Thanks for the data, it somewhat confirms what I had suspected, that the 45 is better theory is in large part a myth. I'd been looking for any data from real world situations vs. theory. It's good to see some.

Cheers,
--Hawk

Was he using wad-cutters by any chance?

Sorry, that was too good to resist.

Cheers,
--Hawk