Full Version: sabot
is there a commercially available 338 sabot for fifty cal?
There is not a SABOT bullet per se for the .50 caliber... however,
I have toyed with the thought of using a .338 Bore riding design with driving bands seated in a 4-petal breakaway cup. That way, you could drive a very long VLD 350 gr. bullet to around 4000 fps.
By using a soft material for the cup, you would cut down radically on barrel heat and wear. Of course the barrel would have to have a special twist and chamber design for the bullet. The problems of using SABOTs in all calibers has been one of accuracy. This is directly linked to the incorrect twist rate in the standard barrel. A SABOT or sub-caliber bullet needs a much slower twist rate.
For a .50 caliber rifle to shoot SABOT rounds accurately, a rate in the order of 1:22 is needed. The current crop of advanced bullets for the .50s is pretty good with BCs a little over 1.000. Tank cannons went to a long dart penetrator for precision and penetrating energy. The next step for advanced .50 caliber shooting may be a sub-caliber bore-riding VLD bullet.
Have to work on this one.
I have toyed with the thought of using a .338 Bore riding design with driving bands seated in a 4-petal breakaway cup. That way, you could drive a very long VLD 350 gr. bullet to around 4000 fps.
By using a soft material for the cup, you would cut down radically on barrel heat and wear. Of course the barrel would have to have a special twist and chamber design for the bullet. The problems of using SABOTs in all calibers has been one of accuracy. This is directly linked to the incorrect twist rate in the standard barrel. A SABOT or sub-caliber bullet needs a much slower twist rate.
For a .50 caliber rifle to shoot SABOT rounds accurately, a rate in the order of 1:22 is needed. The current crop of advanced bullets for the .50s is pretty good with BCs a little over 1.000. Tank cannons went to a long dart penetrator for precision and penetrating energy. The next step for advanced .50 caliber shooting may be a sub-caliber bore-riding VLD bullet.
Have to work on this one.
Triggerfifty - I have ordered some bullets from GS in South Africa in .338. The are made of the same material as the A-Square Monolithic Solids. They are machined, have a very impressive claimed BC and the Oehler data posted seems to support that. They are bore riding bullets with several small driving bands.
I was curious if you have had any experience with them or similar projectiles.
I was curious if you have had any experience with them or similar projectiles.
Hi Rust,
I haven't any experience with the GS bullets. Could you pass on their contact information, as I would like to try them out.
I have experience with bore riding bullets with the machined in driving bands. Have used the Barnes 750 and 800 gr. models, which i think are the best on the market. There are any number of members of the Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association that machine their own also. These being the Horstkamp 762 gr. (not a bore rider, but does use driving bands to "reduce" bore drag, Hollywood 770 gr., Zero Index, the Mance 765 gr. bullets and more.
Chapter 10 in my book on Hard Target Interdiction deals with the subject of specialized ammunition and bore riding designs. One of the major things to consider is that in most designs of bore riders, the chamber must be recut to accomodate the forward projection of the major diameter of the bullet into the rifling.
You can still shoot conventional bullet designs such as military surplus, but you have increased jump from the bullet to the rifling. The driving band that is a larger diameter (.510) that seals the barrel is just at the end of the Bourrlet (that long straight area of the bullet just prior to the boat tail) and is usually .080" wide. That band is usually loaded so that it sets just at the mouth of the case, hence the projection of the bourrlet into the rifling area, requiring additional clearance in that area.
Without seeing the GS bullets, it's hard to say whether you will need to re-chamber your rifle. Skip Talbot of the FCSA says that you only need a special hand reamer and that removing the barrel is not required. Some of the FCSA members bypass this by simply seating the bore riders deeper in the case. But that goes against the philosophy or reducing the jump to the rifling.
Does GS have a website? Are there images available? Thomas or Jacob, maybe time to drop an article your way on bullet design and bore - riding bullets? Whatcha think?
I haven't any experience with the GS bullets. Could you pass on their contact information, as I would like to try them out.
I have experience with bore riding bullets with the machined in driving bands. Have used the Barnes 750 and 800 gr. models, which i think are the best on the market. There are any number of members of the Fifty Caliber Shooter's Association that machine their own also. These being the Horstkamp 762 gr. (not a bore rider, but does use driving bands to "reduce" bore drag, Hollywood 770 gr., Zero Index, the Mance 765 gr. bullets and more.
Chapter 10 in my book on Hard Target Interdiction deals with the subject of specialized ammunition and bore riding designs. One of the major things to consider is that in most designs of bore riders, the chamber must be recut to accomodate the forward projection of the major diameter of the bullet into the rifling.
You can still shoot conventional bullet designs such as military surplus, but you have increased jump from the bullet to the rifling. The driving band that is a larger diameter (.510) that seals the barrel is just at the end of the Bourrlet (that long straight area of the bullet just prior to the boat tail) and is usually .080" wide. That band is usually loaded so that it sets just at the mouth of the case, hence the projection of the bourrlet into the rifling area, requiring additional clearance in that area.
Without seeing the GS bullets, it's hard to say whether you will need to re-chamber your rifle. Skip Talbot of the FCSA says that you only need a special hand reamer and that removing the barrel is not required. Some of the FCSA members bypass this by simply seating the bore riders deeper in the case. But that goes against the philosophy or reducing the jump to the rifling.
Does GS have a website? Are there images available? Thomas or Jacob, maybe time to drop an article your way on bullet design and bore - riding bullets? Whatcha think?
Sounds like something important to go in the <articles> section. Send it when ready.
Thomas
Thomas
Sorry about the late reply. Been out at a couple of work sites and haven't had a chance to peruse the net for awhile.
http://skyboom.com/gscustom/ is the site for GS Custom Bullets. As I stated previously, they look very interesting and they do not require reconfiguration of the chamber or throating which is a big plus.
I have some on the way, they are not particularily cheap by the way, but they look promising and if they deliver about half of what is claimed they would be worth it. I already use Barnes Xs for hunting things like boar so I figured out awhile back that you get what you pay for.
Some people complain that the Barnes copper foul more but that is more a result of not following directions as much as anything else. Have to start with a good and clean bore to begin with. Still, there are always those barrels that won't like them.
I have never had a bad result with a Barnes X either, they've pretty much worked as advertised. I don't get to do a lot of hunting anymore so I prefer to not leave anything to chance like a bullet failing.
Back to the gist of things. I would be very interested in your opinion of the GS line and their design. My impression is that they ought to work pretty well and I don't see any holes in the logic.
http://skyboom.com/gscustom/ is the site for GS Custom Bullets. As I stated previously, they look very interesting and they do not require reconfiguration of the chamber or throating which is a big plus.
I have some on the way, they are not particularily cheap by the way, but they look promising and if they deliver about half of what is claimed they would be worth it. I already use Barnes Xs for hunting things like boar so I figured out awhile back that you get what you pay for.
Some people complain that the Barnes copper foul more but that is more a result of not following directions as much as anything else. Have to start with a good and clean bore to begin with. Still, there are always those barrels that won't like them.
I have never had a bad result with a Barnes X either, they've pretty much worked as advertised. I don't get to do a lot of hunting anymore so I prefer to not leave anything to chance like a bullet failing.
Back to the gist of things. I would be very interested in your opinion of the GS line and their design. My impression is that they ought to work pretty well and I don't see any holes in the logic.
Sorry about the late reply. Been out at a couple of work sites and haven't had a chance to peruse the net for awhile.
http://skyboom.com/gscustom/ is the site for GS Custom Bullets. As I stated previously, they look very interesting and they do not require reconfiguration of the chamber or throating which is a big plus.
I have some on the way, they are not particularily cheap by the way, but they look promising and if they deliver about half of what is claimed they would be worth it. I already use Barnes Xs for hunting things like boar so I figured out awhile back that you get what you pay for.
Some people complain that the Barnes copper foul more but that is more a result of not following directions as much as anything else. Have to start with a good and clean bore to begin with. Still, there are always those barrels that won't like them.
I have never had a bad result with a Barnes X either, they've pretty much worked as advertised. I don't get to do a lot of hunting anymore so I prefer to not leave anything to chance like a bullet failing.
Back to the gist of things. I would be very interested in your opinion of the GS line and their design. My impression is that they ought to work pretty well and I don't see any holes in the logic.
http://skyboom.com/gscustom/ is the site for GS Custom Bullets. As I stated previously, they look very interesting and they do not require reconfiguration of the chamber or throating which is a big plus.
I have some on the way, they are not particularily cheap by the way, but they look promising and if they deliver about half of what is claimed they would be worth it. I already use Barnes Xs for hunting things like boar so I figured out awhile back that you get what you pay for.
Some people complain that the Barnes copper foul more but that is more a result of not following directions as much as anything else. Have to start with a good and clean bore to begin with. Still, there are always those barrels that won't like them.
I have never had a bad result with a Barnes X either, they've pretty much worked as advertised. I don't get to do a lot of hunting anymore so I prefer to not leave anything to chance like a bullet failing.
Back to the gist of things. I would be very interested in your opinion of the GS line and their design. My impression is that they ought to work pretty well and I don't see any holes in the logic.
I ran across this bullet the other day at http://gscustom.co.za/ and wondered before I plunk down so much $$ for them just to try if you guys have formed an opinion yet. I see your discussion is 5 years old or so, so you might not even still be around, but if you care to comment on the GS bullets I'd sure be interested. Thanks.
Fuzzy Hole
Fuzzy Hole
Quick question for triggerfifty, (by the way HTI is a great book, have read most of it & will have to re-read it to get the parts I missed.)
Has anyone tried to make a bullet for the 50 cal that is the same shape on the front & rear end? I was thinking this would reduce the drag & help cut down on keyholeing. I'm not sure if you would have to use a sabot for it as I'm thinking that having a big V shaped slug inside the case may make the charge blow the cartridge apart, but possibly a sabot would take care of that. Just an idea I had & wondering if anyone tried it?
Thanks!
Has anyone tried to make a bullet for the 50 cal that is the same shape on the front & rear end? I was thinking this would reduce the drag & help cut down on keyholeing. I'm not sure if you would have to use a sabot for it as I'm thinking that having a big V shaped slug inside the case may make the charge blow the cartridge apart, but possibly a sabot would take care of that. Just an idea I had & wondering if anyone tried it?
Thanks!
QUOTE (triggerfifty @ Jan 4 2001, 17:02) 
There is not a SABOT bullet per se for the .50 caliber... however,
I have toyed with the thought of using a .338 Bore riding design with driving bands seated in a 4-petal breakaway cup. That way, you could drive a very long VLD 350 gr. bullet to around 4000 fps.
By using a soft material for the cup, you would cut down radically on barrel heat and wear. Of course the barrel would have to have a special twist and chamber design for the bullet. The problems of using SABOTs in all calibers has been one of accuracy. This is directly linked to the incorrect twist rate in the standard barrel. A SABOT or sub-caliber bullet needs a much slower twist rate.
For a .50 caliber rifle to shoot SABOT rounds accurately, a rate in the order of 1:22 is needed. The current crop of advanced bullets for the .50s is pretty good with BCs a little over 1.000. Tank cannons went to a long dart penetrator for precision and penetrating energy. The next step for advanced .50 caliber shooting may be a sub-caliber bore-riding VLD bullet.
Have to work on this one.
I have toyed with the thought of using a .338 Bore riding design with driving bands seated in a 4-petal breakaway cup. That way, you could drive a very long VLD 350 gr. bullet to around 4000 fps.
By using a soft material for the cup, you would cut down radically on barrel heat and wear. Of course the barrel would have to have a special twist and chamber design for the bullet. The problems of using SABOTs in all calibers has been one of accuracy. This is directly linked to the incorrect twist rate in the standard barrel. A SABOT or sub-caliber bullet needs a much slower twist rate.
For a .50 caliber rifle to shoot SABOT rounds accurately, a rate in the order of 1:22 is needed. The current crop of advanced bullets for the .50s is pretty good with BCs a little over 1.000. Tank cannons went to a long dart penetrator for precision and penetrating energy. The next step for advanced .50 caliber shooting may be a sub-caliber bore-riding VLD bullet.
Have to work on this one.
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/En...le_Articles.htm
Interesting Reading!
Regards,
Joisey Steve
Just an FYI on the GS Custom rounds,
I ordered 50 rounds from them through custombrassandbullets back in FEB-08 for a .408 CHEYTAC. Well a few months later I went to Iraq for 7 months and when I got home in November they were still "held up in customs" so I cancelled my order. Hope you have better luck getting them than I did. I finally gave up on the .408 and picked up a Barrett model 99 in .416 instead. Lutz makes rounds for what you may be looking for but he is out of Germany so not sure what the turn around time would be on those either. I have been told he will get stuff to you rather quickly. The only issue with his stuff is that you need to have a twist rate of 1:9 or so. Good luck with your shopping
Dan
I ordered 50 rounds from them through custombrassandbullets back in FEB-08 for a .408 CHEYTAC. Well a few months later I went to Iraq for 7 months and when I got home in November they were still "held up in customs" so I cancelled my order. Hope you have better luck getting them than I did. I finally gave up on the .408 and picked up a Barrett model 99 in .416 instead. Lutz makes rounds for what you may be looking for but he is out of Germany so not sure what the turn around time would be on those either. I have been told he will get stuff to you rather quickly. The only issue with his stuff is that you need to have a twist rate of 1:9 or so. Good luck with your shopping
Dan
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