Attached is a G1 External Ballistics Comparison of the following cartridges

1. 5.56 NATO 77
2. 7.62 NATO 175
3. 6.8 SPC 115
4. 6.5 Grendel 100
5. 6.5 Grendel 108
6. 6.5 Grendel 123
7. 6.5 Grendel 144

All the cartridges, except the 7.62 NATO, are for AR15 / M16 length loads. The 6.5 Grendel velocities are from a AR15. The 6.8 SPC velocities are from a bolt action rifle.

This comparison is being distributed at the Shot Show next week.

whats a 6.5 grendal?

Hi TX65, welcome to SP!
I understand you are involved in the developement of the 6.5 Grendel, and your company is making the rifles. It looks like a great round.
Let me ask a few questions:
- Who loads the 6.5 Grendel commercially, or how can you load for it?
- What is the parent case, and its dimensional specifications?
- What is the capacity of the case compared to the 6.8x43?
- Were the 6.8x43 and the 6.5 Grencel loaded to the same pressure in your comparison?
- Are the loads shown of the 6.5 Grendel reliable enough in the field, concerning pressure and extraction of cases at 120+ ºF ?

Regarding your comparison:
- I think it is not fair to compare high BC bullets (Lapuas 6.5mm) to the so-so 115gr Sierra OTM loaded in the 6.8x43 . There is nothing mystical about the bullet diameter and you could get much better BC for a .277 bullet in the same weight range, not as good as the 6.5 but pretty close.
- You can drive a 7.62 NATO 175 SMK @ 2700+ fps out of a 24" barrel. It is not fair to compare a hot-loaded Grendel to a donwloaded 308.

Isnt it Actually it is called the .26 Grendel? I Know Alexander is dubbing it that, at least that is on the site and from other stirrings in the industry i have heard.

The best manufacturer of ammo there is (IMO) has been contracted to make the ammo.

I am highly interested in doing bolt guns and AR platforms in this caliber. I know the reamers will be tightly controlled and there may be only one or two companies authorized to do rifles in this caliber.
I would just get my AR barrels ready to screw on from the maker if I can, but I would like to ream my own bolt gun tubes.
Anyways, when it comes out fully, we will see...

Celt

Yes, I am one of the contributors in the development of the 6.5 Grendel. My project started back in 1998 and I connected with Bill Alexander in 2002 who had been working on it at the same time and the result of work is the 6.5 Grendel.

The 6.5 Grendel loads shown in the comparison are mild in the 42,000-43,000 PSI range. The 6.8 SPC production load is reported to be at 51,000-52,000 PSI so the 6.5 Grendel WAS NOT loaded hot to disadvantage the 6.8 SPC or any other cartridge.

All the bullets used in the comparison are what the military legal guys would call "land warfare legal" of identical construction type for all calibers. No magic bullets were pulled out in any caliber with polymer tips or VLD designs, just standard production HPBT (OTM) off-the-shelf bullets that anyone can buy. Actually, neither Hornady or Sierra have announced availability of their 6.8mm 115 OTM bullets for reloaders which is highly unusual since it is so close to the SHOT show and they usually will pre-inform dealers to have them stop by their booth so as of this writing, you cannot buy the 6.8mm 115 bullets for loading your own.

I have my match 6.5 Grendel loads with 115 and 120 VLD's with .550-.600 BC's running at higher velocities, but I am a fair person and it would be improper to publish that data to compete against a production Remington load so those loads will remain a secret for now.

That being cleared up, the 6.8 SPC loaded to 2.255 OAL is a bullet limited cartridge since the maximum length ogive that it can run is 14.25mm. As an example, the only match bullet currently offered for the 270 is the Sierra 135 Match King with an ogive over 17mm in length. 43mm case + 17mm ogive = too long for the AR15 / M16. Even still, at 135 grains, the Sierra 135 only has a BC of .482 and the extra 20 grains of bullet weight would really slow things down for the 6.8 SPC.

Yes, you can drive a 7.62 NATO 175 faster then 2600 fps, but that is a handload, not a production load. I only used production loads in the comparison.

Ok, now to the information about the 6.5 Grendel.

The cartridge is a 39mm case length with a .445 case head diameter. The historical origin of the cartridge is the 6mm PPC USA which was necked up to 6.5mm and then the shoulder position and neck length were changed for use in the AR15 and increased case capacity and durability. The cartridge was designed to optimize use of high ballistic bullets within the confines of the AR15 platform and magazine length loading.

Brass is being made by Lapua to the same tolerances as their 220 Russian brass used to dominate benchrest competition with the 6 PPC. The brass is headstamped ALX ARMS and is distributed by Alexander Arms and their dealers at a retail price of 38 cents per case. Dealers include http://www.competitionshooting.com and I am sure Alexander Arms dealers such as Cabela's and Midway will add it to their offering after the SHOT show next week.

Alexander Arms has their own ammunition production and there are three production loads being released next week including the the Lapua 123 Scenar, Nosler 120 Ballistic Tip and Speer 90 grain TNT. The price of all ammo is $19.99 per box which is more then competitive considering the quality of the brass you are left with to reload.

Alexander Arms has a reloading die set for $44.00 made by Lee and the die set includes the loads to duplicate production ammo. Until people like Redding get up to speed, I have a conversion sleeve that you can take a 6 PPC competition seating die and in 2 minutes have a micrometer top seating die for those that prefer. Added note, the 6.5 Grendel factory ammo uses no magic powders or primers. The 6.5 Grendel works well with AA2460, H335, Benchmark, VV530, AA2015 and H322.

Alexander Arms is selling complete rifles, uppers, magazines, brass, ammo and dies for the 6.5 Grendel - a complete solution. In addition, competitionshooting.com has been authorized by Alexander Arms to offer special configurations. I will also being adding a custom configurator in the coming weeks.

As far as reamers, Alexander Arms has not authorized reamers to be sold for public release. In the AR15, what makes the 6.5 Grendel sing and reliable is a combination of barrel extension, bolt and magazines. While magazines are available for purchase, the bolts and barrel extensions are not being sold individually.

To every rule there is an exception. The special configuration uppers competitionshooting.com offers are completed by Medesha Firearms who is very established in the AR15 and AR10 market for building match rifles. In addition, there are plans to authorize two to four additional speciality shops to produce custom made rifles and those people will have access to the reamers, bolts, and barrel extensions.

Lothar Walther is the manufacturer of the barrels and they are awesome pieces of work. Lothar Walther will not sell the 6.5 Grendel barrels to anyone except Alexander Arms or the select list of speciality shops.

If you have a match bolt gun project, best thing to do is call Scott Medesha at Medesha Firearms and discuss your project with him until the other speciality shop names are released.

There will be plenty of sources for you to get the 6.5 Grendel and in the rifle of your choice. Lapua is firmly commited to the 6.5 Grendel for many reasons.

TX65,
You have a PM

Celt

The cartridge is officially the 6.5 Grendel. Alexander Arms is working on a complete overhaul of their website and as all of you can appreciate, the rifles come first.

Hello TX65, a few questions if you dont mind.

1. Is this round targeted at LEO/MIL?

2. What is the teminal ballistics from 0-500m with chosen bullet?

3. What is the reliability in combat conditions, ie. rain, mud, snow, sand?

4. What is the accuracy in a combat weapon.




Thanks.

1. Alexander Arms does not discuss military / LE customers.

2. An article is due to appear in Small Arms Review with testing performed by Dr. Steve Burke, MD and member of the IWBA.

3. Runs fine, personally have been shooting it in high heat / high humidity, rain, freezing rain, dusty and sandy conditions without a problem in over 5,000 rounds of shooting. Alexander Arms has run it in freezing rain, snow, cold, hot, etc, etc.

4. 16 inch barrel, 900 yards, 6.5" average group between 3 different shooters.

TX65, here's a question slightly off topic. I shoot a Grendel SRT-20. Any connection between this and the company that developed the 6.5 Grendel?

I apologize for my ignorance, just curious.

The Grendel in the 6.5 Grendel name is from the English poem Beowulf. Grendel was the mythical monster who was Beowulf's mother. The use of the name was chosen the fit into Alexander Arms other products, the 50 Beowulf and 21 Genghis.

Some updates, took a 6.5 Grendel fired case and a 6.8 SPC fired case and measured capacity differences. Using AA2460 as a reference powder for the test, the 6.5 Grendel had 1.5 grains greater case capacity then the 6.8 SPC.

Ongoing powder studies for show that TAC and N135 are working well. Of course, N530, H322, AA2015, Benchmark, H335 and AA2460 are additional options.

Grendel was the monster Beowulf fought and then finally killed. Grendel had a mother but Grendel was not the mother of Beowulf.




On a less nerdy note, does the 6.5 Grendel work at all in the standard 5.56 usgi mags? Is there currently any kits that make it work?

I know you mentioned that mags are available I specifically want to know if my current mags will work as they will for the 6.8 SPC


Thanks

Fred,

Neither the 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC can be loaded directly into a .223 magazine. The issue has to do with the vertical ribbing on the side of magazine which are set for the dimensions of the .223 case. On lightfighter tactical's forum, there is a whole series of pictures from people who tested the rumor that the SPC would directly load into a .223 magazine. People are reporting that they can only get 5 rounds of 6.8 SPC into a .223 magazine before things go afoul. PRI, who is making the 6.8 SPC magazines, put it best that they wouldn't be spending the time and money making new complete magazines if all that was needed as a follower swap.

That being said, the current civilian magazine for the 6.5 Grendel is a 10 round model (which performed like clockwork last week at Blackwater). The outcome of the AWB in September will determine whether a magazine conversion kit or a complete magazine with capacity greater then 10 rounds is offered.

Good to hear more info on the 6.5 Grendel!

I am an Ordnance Officer in the Army and am trying to spread the word in OD circles on the advantage of this round. I could be used as a replacement for the 5.56 or 7.62 in my opinion. Maybe we can eventually convince the higher ups to have some testing done as a possible SOCOM SCAR optional caliber.

The SCAR contract goals are for a weapon that can shoot 0.25 MOA at 300 yards. The minimum standard is 1.0 MOA at 300 yards. A previous goal (requirements were rewritten) was 0.5 MOA at 400 yards.

Is it me, or has it taken 110 years to get close to a Swedish 1894 carbines perfomance, except for the semi-auto part that is?

Latest info from Arne on the 65 Grendel (Quoted from the 65grendel website):

"So everyone knows,

The Match Rifles (28 Inch and A2 Versions) are built independantly of Alexander Arms by Competition Shooting Sports and Medesha Firearms (Alexander Arms does supply Grendel key components under a license agreement). As such, we run them in batches with the first batch now having been delivered to customers, including the US Army Marksmanship Unit, all over the country. As some who have ordered and are waiting on them know, Scott Medesha is at Camp Perry for the national matches and we will make the next deliveries of match rifles in late September, early October. We currently have availability of another 5 match rifles for the early autumn delivery. Our goal on the match rifles is to run a batch every month and to be able to deliver them on a continual basis in 4-8 weeks depending on demand.

Alexander Arms is currently shipping the 24 inch Grendel models which had distributor and loyal dealer orders being placed as early as November 2003. Those early orders were placed based on hearing of the prototype and Alexander Arms reputation for delivering the product that does what they say it will. Alexander Arms has progressed through the orders and is completing March and already starting on April orders.

The 185 model which has been exclusively sold and distributed by Competition Shooting Sports will begin delivery later this month.

To all those who have them and are still waiting on them, your patience has been appreciated. The 6.5 Grendel is selling at a record rate that is indicative of long term success."

Real information on the 6.8 can be found at 68forums.com
It's not a sniper cartridge for sure but it performs much better than most people thinks it does.
95gr AP at 3000fps. 18" barrel. 115gr OTM 2700fps factory loaded by SSA.