I've been reading about this WW2 Red Army sniper who's accomplishments were featured in the movie Enemy at the gates. I can't find any information about the training of this sniper or did he in fact learn his skills from hunting.
http://216.198.255.120/russianpart/russnipers.html
Full Version: Vassili Zaitsev
According to my Russian American friends, sniper training was a short introduction and the real "Sniper School" was surviving missions. Of course this could just be propaganda, but maybe not.
As far as Zeitsev learning to shoot while shepherding, it sound to heroic to be true, and to probable not to be a lie, considering his age he could have had access to a firearm before the Bolsheviks finished confiscating them all, but how likely are the odds?
Even the number of kills Zeitsev is credited with varies, I think the closest consensus count is 242.
It is true that he was a hero to the Soviet Union, and to the Russian people, when they needed a hero. Seperating fact from propaganda may prove impossible.
Sorry that I couldn't be more enlightening.
Jimro
As far as Zeitsev learning to shoot while shepherding, it sound to heroic to be true, and to probable not to be a lie, considering his age he could have had access to a firearm before the Bolsheviks finished confiscating them all, but how likely are the odds?
Even the number of kills Zeitsev is credited with varies, I think the closest consensus count is 242.
It is true that he was a hero to the Soviet Union, and to the Russian people, when they needed a hero. Seperating fact from propaganda may prove impossible.
Sorry that I couldn't be more enlightening.
Jimro
SR:
Yes, he really did learn his skills from hunting. He even wrote a book based on his experiences. See the "reading list" that I posted some time ago for the book "Notes of a Sniper". You can get a copy from:
http://www.notesofasniper.com/
It's a good read, but some feel that it is a bit propogandized. I'm sure it is. However, there is no doubting that Zaitsev was quite a shot, and accounted for many German kills during that battle.
The original book "Enemy at the Gates" (which only briefly deals with Zaitsev) is a good book to get concerning the Battle of Stalingrad, as is "The Secret of Stalingrad". I think both of these are also in my "reading list", which is pinned in the Just Chat forum.
Cheers,
--Hawk
Yes, he really did learn his skills from hunting. He even wrote a book based on his experiences. See the "reading list" that I posted some time ago for the book "Notes of a Sniper". You can get a copy from:
http://www.notesofasniper.com/
It's a good read, but some feel that it is a bit propogandized. I'm sure it is. However, there is no doubting that Zaitsev was quite a shot, and accounted for many German kills during that battle.
The original book "Enemy at the Gates" (which only briefly deals with Zaitsev) is a good book to get concerning the Battle of Stalingrad, as is "The Secret of Stalingrad". I think both of these are also in my "reading list", which is pinned in the Just Chat forum.
Cheers,
--Hawk
Somewhat off topic, but in the movie, why did everyone speak with a British accent?
Don't all russians? 
Poor casting maybe? Intended initially for British theatres(that was a guess)?
Poor casting maybe? Intended initially for British theatres(that was a guess)?
Good question, besides Ed Harris I didn't know anything about the other actors. I suppose at some point in time Britain claimed Russia as property of the Queen? 
I see this a lot in war movies (especially older ones). You have either Russians, Germans, or some other "bad guy" speaking in an accent not correct for their country. I suspect this has a lot to do (at least in earlier times) with 1) wanting to differentiate the bad guys from the good guys with an accent and 2) needing to pick an accent that all the actors that were bad guys could do. Since many actors, at least years ago, got started in Shakespere companies, apparently English was the accent of choice.
Then again, I'm probably totally wrong LOL
Cheers,
--Hawk
Then again, I'm probably totally wrong LOL
Cheers,
--Hawk
I think the bad guy in every James Bond movie had a British accent regardless of nationality.
It's the MOVIES people.....
HOLLYWOOD.
A MOVIE usually has very little truth in it, or is so badly twisted or sensationalized, the historical value is lost.
You have to read non-fiction historical writings/accounts to get the truth.
The trouble is, his background and training are very ambiguous.
Hollywood and folklore made his exploits famous, though most of society had never even heard the name before the movie came out.
Those that have read the background on him know the truth.
HOLLYWOOD.
A MOVIE usually has very little truth in it, or is so badly twisted or sensationalized, the historical value is lost.
You have to read non-fiction historical writings/accounts to get the truth.
The trouble is, his background and training are very ambiguous.
Hollywood and folklore made his exploits famous, though most of society had never even heard the name before the movie came out.
Those that have read the background on him know the truth.
Read my article here at Snipers Paradise that I wrote about him. Go to "Library" up top, and then click "Introduction."
As an add on, Tania Cherova became a school teacher in Moscow after the war.
Tom
As an add on, Tania Cherova became a school teacher in Moscow after the war.
Tom
QUOTE (RebHawk @ Sep 8 2005, 10:46)
Then again, I'm probably totally wrong LOL
Cheers,
--Hawk
Cheers,
--Hawk
http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/inde...showtopic=10906
who knows, this might be reoccuring?
The following is real:
Tania Chernova was a Russian American who went to Balaris to get her Grandparents out of Russia. The Germans killed her Grandparents. She joined the resistance. Her and her group went to Salingrad and arrived through the sewer system to reach the Russian lines. She joined Zaitsev's sniper school and became a sniper. You never see her take a shot in the movie, but she did kill Germans and was part of a raid on German headquarters were she picked off German guards.She had two dozen German "kills" to her credit.
Her and Zaitsev had a love affair. She was wounded in the abdomen, probably by a land mine, and would never be able to have children. When this happened, Zaitsev carried Tania back to get medical treatment. At this point they were separated, and never saw one another again. Zaitsev tried to find Tania, but because of the war and records were destroyed, he never located her. They both thought each other had been killed. Zaitseve fought all the way to Berlin.
Zaitsev became a construction engineer after the war and married and had several daughters.
There was no love triangle between Danolov, Tania and Zaitsev.
There was a Major Konig, but there is no record of him being sent to the Russian front. Hietz Thervald, is also mentioned as the head of the sniper school at Zosen and suggested to be the super sniper.
Unlike the movie, Zaitsev hunted down the so called super sniper, not the other way around as shown in the movie. Danolov was wounded trying to point out were the German sniper was. He was not killed. Koulikov was Zaitsev's spotter and another one of his snipers.
There was a cobbler boy by the name of Sasha that was hung by the Germans for spying on them, but this was added to the movie. Tania and Zaitsev had no relationship with him.
Zaitsev already was a marksman before he joined the military, and this was recognized by a Political Officer. He became a sniper and ran his own school, and they did turn him into a hero by writing about his kills. This was propaganda to create a hero for the Russian soldiers to admire and be like.
The sniper group that Zaitsev formed were called "The Hares"
Tania Chernova was interviewed by a journalist in 1969, and he ask her about her time in the "Hares". She asked him how he found out about this, and he replied that Zaitsev told him about her. This broke her heart at first, because she thought that Zaitsev had never tried to find her. She did learn that he did try to find her.
The uniforms and sniper rifles used in the movie are accurate, and the director gave a very good depiction of what it was like in Stalingrad during the war.
If, I missed spelled any names, it is because I am rushing to get this posted, and I don't have the time to look up the correct spelling.
Tom
Tania Chernova was a Russian American who went to Balaris to get her Grandparents out of Russia. The Germans killed her Grandparents. She joined the resistance. Her and her group went to Salingrad and arrived through the sewer system to reach the Russian lines. She joined Zaitsev's sniper school and became a sniper. You never see her take a shot in the movie, but she did kill Germans and was part of a raid on German headquarters were she picked off German guards.She had two dozen German "kills" to her credit.
Her and Zaitsev had a love affair. She was wounded in the abdomen, probably by a land mine, and would never be able to have children. When this happened, Zaitsev carried Tania back to get medical treatment. At this point they were separated, and never saw one another again. Zaitsev tried to find Tania, but because of the war and records were destroyed, he never located her. They both thought each other had been killed. Zaitseve fought all the way to Berlin.
Zaitsev became a construction engineer after the war and married and had several daughters.
There was no love triangle between Danolov, Tania and Zaitsev.
There was a Major Konig, but there is no record of him being sent to the Russian front. Hietz Thervald, is also mentioned as the head of the sniper school at Zosen and suggested to be the super sniper.
Unlike the movie, Zaitsev hunted down the so called super sniper, not the other way around as shown in the movie. Danolov was wounded trying to point out were the German sniper was. He was not killed. Koulikov was Zaitsev's spotter and another one of his snipers.
There was a cobbler boy by the name of Sasha that was hung by the Germans for spying on them, but this was added to the movie. Tania and Zaitsev had no relationship with him.
Zaitsev already was a marksman before he joined the military, and this was recognized by a Political Officer. He became a sniper and ran his own school, and they did turn him into a hero by writing about his kills. This was propaganda to create a hero for the Russian soldiers to admire and be like.
The sniper group that Zaitsev formed were called "The Hares"
Tania Chernova was interviewed by a journalist in 1969, and he ask her about her time in the "Hares". She asked him how he found out about this, and he replied that Zaitsev told him about her. This broke her heart at first, because she thought that Zaitsev had never tried to find her. She did learn that he did try to find her.
The uniforms and sniper rifles used in the movie are accurate, and the director gave a very good depiction of what it was like in Stalingrad during the war.
If, I missed spelled any names, it is because I am rushing to get this posted, and I don't have the time to look up the correct spelling.
Tom
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Zaitsev blinded by a mortar shortly before the end of the war?
QUOTE
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Zaitsev blinded by a mortar shortly before the end of the war?
That's partly correct. He was blinded permanently by a land mine, but it was in January, 1943 according to the accounts I have seen.
Cheers,
--Hawk
In Major Plaster's Book-The Ultimate Sniper-Pages 375-376-They talk about the Duel between Major Koning & Zaitsev-I'm not sure what his reference is for this-There is no footnote-Lee
If you want to know about Zaitsev, read his book.
http://www.notesofasniper.com/index2.htm
This is the Introduction to the book.
About Vassili Zaitsev
Vassili Zaitsev was one of the leading Russian snipers of World War II.
All of his 242 verified kills were all made in the period of a few months, from October of 1942, soon after he arrived in Stalingrad, up until the time he was wounded by shrapnel in January of 1943, just before the German 6th Army surrendered.
Zaitsev wrote several accounts of his exploits, beginning with an essay titled “Sniper Story,” dictated during the battle and published by the Soviet military press. Zaitsev’s book-length memoir was first published in 1956, in a limited edition from Vladivostok. The book was titled “Notes of a Sniper: For Us There Was No Land Beyond the Volga.”
There were several subsequent editions of “Notes of a Sniper,” the final Russian language version being the 1971 edition, printed in Moscow.
The English language translation of “Notes of a Sniper” relies primarily on the 1971 edition. Zaitsev’s short account of the battle from 1942 is included in the appendices. Ten pages of photos include Soviet posters from Stalingrad, and several photos of Zaitsev and his fellow snipers, never previously published in the West. Also included is a 1941 color topographic map of the city of Stalingrad.
====================================
In the late summer of 1942, as the German Army entered Stalingrad, the Red Army was confused and dispirited. Stavka, the Soviet High Command, had not yet come up with a plan to encircle Paulus’s 6th Army. They had not developed any strategy, other than to hold Stalingrad and to deny the Germans a victory there.
To this end the Red Army poured in troops from all over the Soviet empire. Many Soviet soldiers were reluctant to face the Panzers and the Luftwaffe’s crushing air power, but others, motivated by Russian nationalism, communist propaganda, and a desire to take revenge against the Germans, volunteered for duty on the Stalingrad front.
Chief Petty Officer Vassili Zaitsev was a bookkeeper based in Vladivostok with the Soviet Pacific Fleet. He had been a sailor for five years. Zaitsev could not tolerate sitting out the war on the tranquil Pacific base while his country was bleeding, and he and twenty fellow sailors volunteered to fight in Stalingrad.
The Russian brass did not consider Zaitsev the bookkeeper to be fighting material. At first his superiors were going to be deploy him on the safe side of the Volga, to continue his duties as a clerk. Zaitsev had to struggle with the military bureaucracy in order to be re-assigned to a combat unit. Although his officers knew from his target range experience that he was an excellent shot, no one thought to assign him as a sniper.
Zaitsev himself had never seen a rifle with a telescopic sight until he was in the midst of the battle. What becomes clear from Zaitsev’s book, is that at the outset of the battle, the disorganized Russians had very few experienced snipers in Stalingrad.
One day in October 1942, Zaitsev was in his foxhole when he shot a German machine gunner several hundred yards away, using a rifle with ordinary sights. By chance Zaitsev’s commander witnessed the incident. He ordered that Zaitsev be issued a sniper rifle with a telescopic sight, and that is how Zaitsev found his calling.
He developed his skills and tactics on the battlefield. Soon after receiving his new assignment, Zaitsev was ordered to start a sniper school in Stalingrad. This is his comment about the situation: “I, the professor, had in reality been the school’s first student. Up to now, my only teacher had been my own mistakes.”
Later in the book, Zaitsev makes reference to one (and only one) other Russian sniper in Stalingrad who was a graduate of the Moscow Snipers’ School. And all but two of the Red Army snipers Zaitsev mentions as being in Stalingrad were either sailors from Vladivostok, or enlisted men Zaitsev personally recruited from the 284th Rifle Division. In other words, almost every Soviet sniper at Stalingrad was recruited and trained by Zaitsev on the spot.
Zaitsev and his fellow snipers became crucial to the Russian’s strategy. By targeting German officers, non-coms, artillery observers, and machine gunners, the Red Army snipers were able to keep the German 6th Army off-balance. In Zaitsev’s words, the German officer corps in Stalingrad was “beheaded,” and unable to respond to the Red Army’s initiatives.
As to the duel between Konig and Vassili, read my article. Most historians said it never happened, but the story caught on, through Russian propaganda and has been told over and over through the years. This is were Plaster gets his source.
Tom
http://www.notesofasniper.com/index2.htm
This is the Introduction to the book.
About Vassili Zaitsev
Vassili Zaitsev was one of the leading Russian snipers of World War II.
All of his 242 verified kills were all made in the period of a few months, from October of 1942, soon after he arrived in Stalingrad, up until the time he was wounded by shrapnel in January of 1943, just before the German 6th Army surrendered.
Zaitsev wrote several accounts of his exploits, beginning with an essay titled “Sniper Story,” dictated during the battle and published by the Soviet military press. Zaitsev’s book-length memoir was first published in 1956, in a limited edition from Vladivostok. The book was titled “Notes of a Sniper: For Us There Was No Land Beyond the Volga.”
There were several subsequent editions of “Notes of a Sniper,” the final Russian language version being the 1971 edition, printed in Moscow.
The English language translation of “Notes of a Sniper” relies primarily on the 1971 edition. Zaitsev’s short account of the battle from 1942 is included in the appendices. Ten pages of photos include Soviet posters from Stalingrad, and several photos of Zaitsev and his fellow snipers, never previously published in the West. Also included is a 1941 color topographic map of the city of Stalingrad.
====================================
In the late summer of 1942, as the German Army entered Stalingrad, the Red Army was confused and dispirited. Stavka, the Soviet High Command, had not yet come up with a plan to encircle Paulus’s 6th Army. They had not developed any strategy, other than to hold Stalingrad and to deny the Germans a victory there.
To this end the Red Army poured in troops from all over the Soviet empire. Many Soviet soldiers were reluctant to face the Panzers and the Luftwaffe’s crushing air power, but others, motivated by Russian nationalism, communist propaganda, and a desire to take revenge against the Germans, volunteered for duty on the Stalingrad front.
Chief Petty Officer Vassili Zaitsev was a bookkeeper based in Vladivostok with the Soviet Pacific Fleet. He had been a sailor for five years. Zaitsev could not tolerate sitting out the war on the tranquil Pacific base while his country was bleeding, and he and twenty fellow sailors volunteered to fight in Stalingrad.
The Russian brass did not consider Zaitsev the bookkeeper to be fighting material. At first his superiors were going to be deploy him on the safe side of the Volga, to continue his duties as a clerk. Zaitsev had to struggle with the military bureaucracy in order to be re-assigned to a combat unit. Although his officers knew from his target range experience that he was an excellent shot, no one thought to assign him as a sniper.
Zaitsev himself had never seen a rifle with a telescopic sight until he was in the midst of the battle. What becomes clear from Zaitsev’s book, is that at the outset of the battle, the disorganized Russians had very few experienced snipers in Stalingrad.
One day in October 1942, Zaitsev was in his foxhole when he shot a German machine gunner several hundred yards away, using a rifle with ordinary sights. By chance Zaitsev’s commander witnessed the incident. He ordered that Zaitsev be issued a sniper rifle with a telescopic sight, and that is how Zaitsev found his calling.
He developed his skills and tactics on the battlefield. Soon after receiving his new assignment, Zaitsev was ordered to start a sniper school in Stalingrad. This is his comment about the situation: “I, the professor, had in reality been the school’s first student. Up to now, my only teacher had been my own mistakes.”
Later in the book, Zaitsev makes reference to one (and only one) other Russian sniper in Stalingrad who was a graduate of the Moscow Snipers’ School. And all but two of the Red Army snipers Zaitsev mentions as being in Stalingrad were either sailors from Vladivostok, or enlisted men Zaitsev personally recruited from the 284th Rifle Division. In other words, almost every Soviet sniper at Stalingrad was recruited and trained by Zaitsev on the spot.
Zaitsev and his fellow snipers became crucial to the Russian’s strategy. By targeting German officers, non-coms, artillery observers, and machine gunners, the Red Army snipers were able to keep the German 6th Army off-balance. In Zaitsev’s words, the German officer corps in Stalingrad was “beheaded,” and unable to respond to the Red Army’s initiatives.
As to the duel between Konig and Vassili, read my article. Most historians said it never happened, but the story caught on, through Russian propaganda and has been told over and over through the years. This is were Plaster gets his source.
Tom
There is another book that is titled "Russia's Heroes" by Albert Axell. There is a whole chapter devoted to
and "The Snipers" I found the book very interesting as also "Enemy at the Gates" another good one is "Stalingrad"by Antony Beevor. Their all good reading...........
Semper Fi! Brian
and "The Snipers" I found the book very interesting as also "Enemy at the Gates" another good one is "Stalingrad"by Antony Beevor. Their all good reading...........
Semper Fi! Brian
Hi, this a newbie's first post so don't beat me up too badly.
Zaitsev regained his sight during the war, according to his book, "Notes of a Sniper."
The book has a somewhat propaganda tone. He praises "the Party" on a regular basis but he does mention an officer who didn't like him and a few other items that are not perfectly rosy. It is an enjoyable book and is well worth reading.
One thing that struck me was that contrary to many assertations that all sniping in urban areas takes place at short ranges, he refers to a 600 meter shot and others at longish ranges.
I believe that Soviet citizens or at least citizens in good standing with the Party were allowed to have shotguns and perhaps some sort of hunting rifles. I am not sure that this was true in Stalin's day.
Zaitsev regained his sight during the war, according to his book, "Notes of a Sniper."
The book has a somewhat propaganda tone. He praises "the Party" on a regular basis but he does mention an officer who didn't like him and a few other items that are not perfectly rosy. It is an enjoyable book and is well worth reading.
One thing that struck me was that contrary to many assertations that all sniping in urban areas takes place at short ranges, he refers to a 600 meter shot and others at longish ranges.
I believe that Soviet citizens or at least citizens in good standing with the Party were allowed to have shotguns and perhaps some sort of hunting rifles. I am not sure that this was true in Stalin's day.
The distances during those days where a bit short...
The longest kill for our top sniper Simo Häyhä was only about 450m. But because that was with open sights and to a enemy sniper that was only partially visible... I think that it was a OK shot...
Häyhä did not prefer the telescopic sight because the only available was the Physica sigth... Ment for maxim machine gun it was too bulky and also very easily made the sniper visible because you had to rise your head...
The sniping during those days...
S
The longest kill for our top sniper Simo Häyhä was only about 450m. But because that was with open sights and to a enemy sniper that was only partially visible... I think that it was a OK shot...
Häyhä did not prefer the telescopic sight because the only available was the Physica sigth... Ment for maxim machine gun it was too bulky and also very easily made the sniper visible because you had to rise your head...
The sniping during those days...
S
I posted some info about this Finnish sniper in "just chat" in the Winter War topic.
Zaitsev did regained his sight during the war. He became a Professor of Civil Engineering. He was a loyal Communist.
Tom
Tom
Hey just a thanks. I have realy enjoyed this thread. Very informative
I still think "Rachel Weiss" looked better in "The Mummy & The Mummy Returns." Oh so fine!
Its pretty had to look sexy in a Russian uniform, crawling around in sews. I love her. She is one of my favorite actors.
Tom
Tom
I cant seem to order this book on the website , how did y'all get a copy?
QUOTE (Just shooting @ Nov 27 2005, 17:21)
I still think "Rachel Weiss" looked better in "The Mummy & The Mummy Returns." Oh so fine!
Ya, she is hot in those movies. Still looked good in Enemy at the Gates, but alot better in the Mummy movies
QUOTE (Lakotah @ Mar 5 2007, 13:39)
QUOTE (Just shooting @ Nov 27 2005, 17:21)
I still think "Rachel Weiss" looked better in "The Mummy & The Mummy Returns." Oh so fine!
Ya, she is hot in those movies. Still looked good in Enemy at the Gates, but alot better in the Mummy movies
Cute in enemy at the gates... but a cutie like that in uniform?
QUOTE (Lakotah @ Mar 5 2007, 13:39)
QUOTE (Just shooting @ Nov 27 2005, 17:21)
I still think "Rachel Weiss" looked better in "The Mummy & The Mummy Returns." Oh so fine!
Ya, she is hot in those movies. Still looked good in Enemy at the Gates, but alot better in the Mummy movies
Does that make her a yummy mummy?
yup yup
Hey Guys,
Wow...we start out talking about a Russian Sniper and end up with discussing an actress, who took a perfectly good Sniping movie and made it a love story...for shame...
Respectfully,
Harry
Wow...we start out talking about a Russian Sniper and end up with discussing an actress, who took a perfectly good Sniping movie and made it a love story...for shame...
Respectfully,
Harry
Harry,
Give me a min here I am still on the Yummy Mummy comment....
Give me a min here I am still on the Yummy Mummy comment....
QUOTE (lee375 @ Sep 12 2005, 17:24)
In Major Plaster's Book-The Ultimate Sniper-Pages 375-376-They talk about the Duel between Major Koning & Zaitsev-I'm not sure what his reference is for this-There is no footnote-Lee
He was temporarily blind for some time. His sight was slowly restored as the wounds healed. He became an engineer.
Tom
Tom
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