Which type feed system do you prefer, and why?

Controlled round feed has more reliable extraction, but all the "benchrest" and modern sniper rifles use push round feed. The Mauser 98, 1903 Springfield, and Win mod70 all have controlled round feed and did well in their sniper role.

What I find interesting are the similarities between Mosin-Nagants and Savage rifles. Both have floating bolt heads that allow the bolt to align with the chamber shot after shot. The only real feature difference is the button ejector on the Savage. I don't like button ejectors especially, but they do the job.

Jimro

All CZ rifles are CRF. Including this piece of art. http://www.czub.cz/navody/cz750us.pdf

CZ puts out some fine weapons, between a Ruger M77MKII and a CZ 550 I'd be hard pressed to decide which one for hunting...

I like these babies
http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=49
http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=21

Jimro

I've had two controled feed systems malfunction, failure to extract. One the whole extractor came out of it's seat with factory .375H&H ammo. The other the claw slipped off the chambered fired case. I have yet to have a push feed fail, my prefered is a SAKO type claw, not having to shoot in an upside down condition they have given me great results and absolute reliability in both SAKO's and McMillan actions.

take care...Jim

What brand of CRF failed on you? I've never had a failure to extract with any of my Mausers.

Jimro

I own about a dozen Mausers, never had a problem.

Edited, I sold a Remington 700 VS in .222 caliber about 5 years ago, on occasion the bolt would jam up upon extraction, instead of putting money into it I sold it.

From what I understand the extractor for a winchester is better for the larger cartridges, however, on LARGE (416, 458...maybe 375 like JY was big enough?) it tends to wear out because of the size of cartridge it has to fling out.

A knew a few Marine snipers whom would swear at the push feed of a Rem 700. Failures to eject if they got grit in them (imagine that, a Marine and his weapon getting getting dirty). Not in-country in Iraq, but a joint exercise with the Canadians. Go figure.
On the fiip side, other guys never experienced that problem.
Me, I prefer the CRF. More refined, less clusmy.
Just my 0.02 worth!

Jimro,

If you've felt the triggers on the Ruger MKII's you'll have no problem deciding on the CZ, the Ruger triggers are terrible.

I've had several of both types of extractors in hunting rifles and never had a problem with either.

Several years ago I saw a tape of an experiment where a steel rod had a '06 sized case head machined onto either end. A Remington 700 and a Mauser type bolt in their respective actions were attached to opposite ends, pulling against each other in some sort of press. Neither of the extractors failed, the Remington finally pulled a chunk of steel off the rod, ending the experiment.

My opinion is what ever you like, use it.

Rob

Hi Jimro;

Actually one was a Winchester M70 in .375H&H, the other a custom Mauser in .416 Rigby. Both with factory ammo no reloads, I never use reloads for hunting. Both failed in Eastern Transvaal in the RSA, but with a good many years separating the break downs.

The Winchester M70 shed the extractor and bent the C shaped retainer failing to extract the empty. The Mauser took a small bite out of the rim slipped off leaving the empty chambered. ALL action types can fail even the "controlled round feed", but the Sako type extractor has yet to fail me. And I have yet to have a problem with the Remington extractor on the M24 SWS in desert or mountains...knock on a large piece of wood
LOL, the "controlled feed" sure fed them, just failed to extract Shoot and hunt enough and Mr murphy will visit you, that is the only sure thing.

Take care...Jim

Never had a problem with extraction in either of the M40A1's I was issued. Never saw another Scout-Sniper have a problem, either. Did see a couple of bolt handles come off, though.

I can't think of an environment I didn't either deploy or train in: desert, urban, snow (to include above the Arctic circle), piney woods, triple canopy jungles, etc.

JY

I was wondering if one of your failures was a Mauser, it makes sense that the gunsmith had to open up the extractor rim for the bigger cartrige, if he didn't take his time and been careful he could have taken off too much material. I find it weird that it failed on a 416 Rigby, that's a low pressure cartrige designed for easy extraction. But you're not alone, lots of hunters in Africa found mauser claws breaking off portions of the rim and leaving the rest of the brass in the chamber, especially if the ammo got hot before the shot and raised the case temperature.

Next time have the Chaplain bless your weapons and ammo before you go on Safari
Then again, the last time I saw a chaplain bless a HMMWV it ended up in the shop for a month straight....

Jimro

What is controlled feed and push feed? I am an old timer. The only terms I know are semi-automatic, full automatic or bolt rifles.

Tom

A push feed action are like the Remington 700 or Savage bolt actions. The bolt pushes the round out of the magazine and into the chamber. After that round has entered the chamber fully and stops, usually bearing on the shoulder, the bolt comes forward a bit more and the extractor snaps over the rim.

On a controlled round feed action (ala Mauser 98, pre-64 Winchester 70, CZ550) as the round is fed out of the magazine, the rim slips up under the extractor and is held by the extractor during the entire chambering process.

Easy way to tell what you have, if you don't know, is to hold the rifle upside down and attempt to chamber a round as slow as possible.

If the round chambers, it's controlled round fed.

If it falls out of the action (or out of alignment and binds up on the top of the bolt), it's a push feed.

I've never had a problem with either. Never really noticed any difference for that matter.

Hi Jimro;

That was what the local gunsmith thought caused the failures...heat, elevating the chamber pressure. Both cases when removed and examined had flat primers. A lot of cartridge problems come from the dealers storing it in out buildings where heat and cold are left to Mr Murphy. Neither ruined the hunt though, one of my relations there has a few nice double rifles and will lend me one when in country...wish I could afford just one
Actually the Mauser was a commercial action not military and many years old. It was used a lot over the years and that was the first failure of any kind it had.

Take care...Jim

Isn't the FN SPR Controlled round feed?

Hey Bro,
Yeah, it's based on the Winchester Model 70 action.
Respectfully,
Harry

Then FNH is a post 64 action with a pre 64 type claw extractor, so it is not like the "controlled push feed" they sell in their hunting guns. Although it is a true controlled feed action, it has also been altered so as to accept single feed more readily for sniper use. I have yet to have an FNH fail to extract or feed in any of the 308's or the 300WSM I had.

As to the first question, if it works, both are fine, if it does not, it sucks either way. I have had more Remingtons, so I have had more of them fail to extract on whole. As I indicated above I have never had one of my FN rifles fail to extract. If the rifle is built well, there should not be issues either way. One of the things I like about the FN is that you can control how the rifle ejects. You can run it hard and toss brass over your partner. You can run it slow and have it trickle into your palm. On the other hand, my GAP puts them in the same spot every stinking time, and it is one of the most fun rifles to shoot I have ever had.

Dave

Juroku brings up a good point about extraction, and that is ejection.

Just FYI, review for most of you,

Button type ejectors are most common on push round feed rifles, Rem700, Savage, M16's etc. The exception to the rule is the Mosin-Nagant (push round feed), which has a fixed blade ejector, and the Rugger M77 which is controlled round feed (sort of) with button ejector. Button ejectors will expell the brass the same no matter how hard you cycle the bolt.

Blade ejectors come in two flavors, fixed, as in no moving parts, like an SKS or Mosin-Nagant, or spring actuated like on Mausers. Blade ejectors will toss the brass accordingly to how hard you cycle the bolt. Contrary to the name, blade ejectors are not sharp.

Jimro

What happens when you have a control round feed and you get into a jam and have to throw an extra round in and forget to push it down in the mag before you feed it.....then you ram it home and.........bummer dude your'e s*@t out of luck!

If you forget to seat the round in the magazine with a CRF rifle, use a cleaning rod and push the bullet back out, if it is Mauser type, you can also try to push on the claw extractor's rear "spring" area to allow the claw to snap over the rim.

Jimro

That won't work if you are staring at a wounded charging bufalo or trying to engage a hostile individual with the intent on kill'n you. Most people never think about it but it is a very serious problem. It boils down to this:

ALWAYS BE PROFICIENT WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT.

Kimber went with CRF in their hunting rifles, they believe it's a better choice for hunting.

+1 on what Jered said. That, & how do you turn a controlled round feed into a single shot for benchrest etc.

I'm not knocking the design, or a specific rifle/brand. Just saying that you need to know your limitations & that of your tools.

My FN SPR can single feed, without pushing the cartridge into the magazine, just fine. It extracts just fine too.

+1 on what .300wm said!I have over 1400 rnds through my FN and probably half or more of those I single fed.

Hello to everybody...
This is my first post and I wanted to let everybody know that I just love soaking up the great information that the members post here.

I recognize several names from other forums that I frequent.

Just had a quick question on this very topic...

What is a Win M70 CRPF???

How can you have a Controlled Round feed and Push feed all at the same time???

Just $.02 worth. #1 You can single feed any crf of the mauser variety safely by pinching the extractor towards the bolt with your left hand as you load as that will pull the extractor around the rim edge. #2 have any of you guys ever palmed the bolt and fired with your mauser type rifle with your pinky or ring finger? You can fire fairly quickly this way and people around you will swear you are firing a semi auto. These were both common skills taught to trench fighters in WWI.

I've got push and crf, never
had any problem's with either.

Regards Albert

If it's an FNH, your good to go!

Aren't Weatherby, Sako, Ruger, Kimber, Cooper, Steyr-Mannlicher, Dakota also CRF actions and Remington has the Mauser and their CRF actions also...l

Best of both worlds ... The M1917 action.

This is a feature I prefer over my 700pss.

Single feed is possible by dropping in a round in the ejection /feed port. The claw will snap over the rim.

As far as the charging beast that will kill you............If you got enough time to add more rounds to your rifle YOUR dead

I've seen failures of CRF rifles, both Mauser and Winchester actual pre-64s. In some cases it was due to wear/damage and in a couple of cases it was due to botched smithing. I have a few Mausers (military and commercial actions) and a few actual pre-64 Winchesters of which none have ever failed, including a .416 Rigby CZ that I love to plink with for as long as I can stand it. Fun at the range with stout loads.

That said I have had problems with Remingtons but primarily when chambered for the Ultramags. Not enough bolt head left for the extractor to stay in, which is why they are riveted in. To be blunt, the original extractor in my .338 RUM failed after about 500 rounds. Not impressed with that. Now in standard 30-06 case head diameters and .223 I've never had a single problem.

Now as far as hunting dangerous game goes, if you don't have at least one person backing you, you shouldn't be there in the first place, W.D.M Bell aside. I would never stand and brain an elephant at 50 feet with a 6.5 X 54 Mannlichner-Schoeneur once, let alone on a consistant basis.

At any rate, for a magnum case head or larger (ie .404 Jeffries or RUM) I would prefer other than the Remington extractor.

Oh yes, I also like one piece bolt/handles too. And if the machining of the bolt, receiver and barrel are good, the bolt head shouldn't have to float to line up in the chamber.

A little tweaking and both types and there variants are reliable!!!!! That being said I build and shoot them all but tend to prefer the push feed for overall accuracy --- however FN Mod 70 actions ( SPR type not PBR types ) are VERY HARD TO BEAT for overall reliability vs. accuracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , Red

I've fired both without failure, just as a personal preference, push-feed...

I don't have a controlled feed, but by cmshoots description that would be the way to go. What are the pro's and cons of a contdrolled feed?

The only actual con I'm aware of is if/when you single feed you have to load into the magazine with controlled feed, can't just drop it in the chamber and close the bolt...