Dry Firing, Who does it? Options

[Guest_Schmidt_Rubin_*]

On a different board we have a debate going on about dry firing, pros and cons. Do you dry fire and if so why? Personally I don't.

[cmshoot]

Dry firing is one of the most important exercises you can do. As a matter of fact, I can't think of a good reason not to dry fire. When I was shooting competition in the Corps, at the end of every day we went back to the barracks and dry fired for hours, rifle and pistol. I can't begin to calculate all the time I spent dry firing in STA Platoon (Surveillance and Target Acquisition Platoon, military euphemism for a Scout-Sniper Platoon in the Marine Corps).

The Corps was always big on dry firing with the rifle, we called it "snapping in". Not only are you practicing sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control and breath control, but you are practicing your different shooting positions.

With dry firing, you can analyze what you are doing with recoil "messing it all up". It's hard to tell if you have a minor flinch or jerk when shooting a live weapon. It is very apparent during dry fire.

I use A-Zoom snap caps in all the weapons that I dry fire. Better safe than sorry.

An extension of dry firing is the "ball and dummy" drill. Mix dummy rounds in with your live ammo when shooting. This way, you are more likely to catch yourself doing something bad. It is also good for malfunction drills, expecially in semi-auto pistols and rifles.

The only con I can think of when dry firing is that if you already have bad habits, you are going to reinforce them, but that is the same with shooting live ammo. A bad shooter usually cannot get better by just shooting increasing amounts of ammo. It takes someone that knows what they are doing to watch them and analyze, then correct, their problems.

From an Instructor point of view, the dry fire/ball and dummy drills are a must. They allow us to see everything that the shooter is doing, without recoil "getting in the way".

If you talk to any of the top competition shooters, and I'm talking rifle and pistol, you will find that they all dry fire.

One of the most important things about dry firing, especially is you are not doing it on a sanctioned range, is SAFETY. Make sure that your weapon is clear and that there is no live ammo anywhere around you. The A-Zoom snap caps that I use are machined from a solid piece of aluminum with a rubber "primer". The round itself is anodized a reddish-maroon color and easy to distinguish from live ammo (at least from any of the ammo I have ever used!).

[Guest_Schmidt_Rubin_*]

I see your points, but doesn't live ammo add another factor? If you know the gun is empty there is no anticipation of a round going off, mainly with beginners there is usually anticipation of that round going off. How much of a factor is it to dry fire (practice) with a handgun that weighs 40 ounces, then add 15 rounds changing the weight of the firearm, anything significant?
I shoot all kinds of firearms in different calibers and I don't think snap caps are available in 7.62 Tokarev or 9x23 Steyr. That would give me options to dry fire with some of my firearms but not all, with the CZ52 being one of my main carry pieces that's one I can't dry fire with.

Over the years I've developed a good smooth trigger squeeze using live ammo, I've never dry fired.

[Hardcore357m]

I dry fire all the time. Especially with a pistol.

Tim

[cmshoot]

If weight is an issue, you can buy weighted training mags. I have thought of this before and don't believe that it is an issue. As you fire a pistol with live ammo, it is constantly getting lighter as rounds are expended. I have never noticed this while actually firing. Filling a magazine with snap caps or the dummy rounds I describe below would also add weight, especially for guns like your CZ that you won't find a weighted training mag for.

One of the things that even a good shooter with good skills gets out of dry firing is reinforcement of muscle memory. You know the weapon isn't gonna go bang, but you are constantly training the trigger finger to smoothly add pressure for a surprise break. Pick a spot on the wall and practice. After each shot, ask yourself:

1. Did the "shot" surprise me?

2. Did I maintain sight alignment and sight picture as the shot broke?

3. Did I automatically reset the trigger and reacquire an additional sight picture (follow through)?

If you reload, you can make dummy cartridges very easily. Even if you don't reload, it isn't hard to do.

My buddy is a fellow Cowboy Action shooter and he uses .44-40. He couldn't find any snap caps in that caliber. I took some .44-40 cases, removed the primers and filled the primer pockets in with a silicone sealant, to give the firing pin something durable and soft to strike. I then filled the cases with corn cob media from my tumbler to keep the bullets from pushing back into the casing when dropped or repeatedly cycled through a lever action rifle. I then seated a bullet and crimped as usual. To help distinguish from his "real" ammo, I made the smap caps out of nickel-plated brass, which he doesn't use in his live ammo.

Dry firing doesn't just work on your trigger control, it works on all your skills, except a portion of follow through. It is a very good drill for practicing draws, especially from different positions, and reloads when using training mags or dummy rounds.

When we would dry fire with M-16's in the Corps, we would remove the charging handle and loop a long length of 550 cord around the bolt key and out the rear of the receiver. While you were firing, your partner would hold the other end of the 550 cord. Every time you dry fired, he would pulled the bolt sharply to the rear and release. This would simulate recoil, and also c*** the hammer for another shot. Great drill.

If you don't think that you will get much out of dry firing, try the ball and dummy drills. I guarantee you'll catch a flinch or jerk every once in a while, especially if you are doing stress drills or run-and-guns.

[juroku]

I think it depends on what you are shooting, and the type of shooting you are doing. I certainly never dry fired my MP5, and I have never dry fired my M16. Everything I do with those weapons involves movement, is geared towards very close work, and pin point accuracy is not generally the primary function. I never found it to be of any value at all with these systems. The best training is to gear up, load up, and shoot at things that are moving, while you are moving. I use both on full auto, so trigger follow through is a bit hazerdous. It is all about mindset, position, and practice in real conditions at practical targets. No dry fire for me here.

When I first took up the pistol I did a ton of dry practice. With the revolver at first , then not so much with the 1911 (just enough to get trigger reset established). I did a ton of dry practice with the 1911 but little trigger time, mostly reloads, malfunctions and holster drills. All of these things are manipulation oriented. I never have been involved in bulls eye shooting with the pistol, it has always been a tactical tool to me, not a precision instrument. If I was doing bulls eye stuff it maybe different. I shoot my pistols weekly, so I never dray practice any more, it is all live fire.

When I first took up the sniper rifle, again I performed dry fire drills. It really helps with the NPOA. Once I had that down however I spent my time live fire on the range. Again, it is a tactical rifle to me, so for what I generally do, and at practical ranges it is less critical. For an LEO sniper, at 50-100 yards there are more important things to work on once the basics are established. When I am shooting long range, I will "snap in" enough to make sure I can find my rythm, as the little things make a difference at 600 and beyond. But then, it is about the wind, and other things. I shoot these rifles weekly as well, so I do little or no dry practice.

Now, I have been playing with the service rifle lately, and THAT is where I find it very valuable. When you are using iron sights, from unsupported positions, at 200, 300, and 600 yards for me at least, the dry fire practice is invaluable. It is nothing like shooting from a bag, or bi-pod and everything affects your shot. Dry fire practice allows you to establish a rythm, a solid position, and an understanding of your breathing patterns and ability to establish NPOA with that rifle. Rythm is incredibly important with the iron sights, and it is far more visible than in a scoped rifle. I will "snap in" as I get set up, and perform some dry fire practice when I am done. If it is your intention to be accurate and consistent with an iron sighted rifle, from unsupported positions then dry fire is incredibly valuable, and most likely a must.

Dave

[RebHawk]

I shoot all kinds of firearms in different calibers and I don't think snap caps are available in 7.62 Tokarev or 9x23 Steyr. That would give me options to dry fire with some of my firearms but not all, with the CZ52 being one of my main carry pieces that's one I can't dry fire with.

Incorrect. A-Zoom caps are available in both these calibers:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=194894

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=198195

Currently out of stock on Tokarev, but you can also order from A-Zoom directly (albeit without your C&R discount from Midway):

http://www.lymanproducts.com/azoom/index.htm

Also, note that most of the hype you may have heard about CZ-52 firing pins breaking if you dare to dry-fire without a snap-cap is just that, a lot of hype. The general consensus on milsurpshooter.com is that those fears are spread by people in the business of selling firing pins. Still, snap caps are available, so why not use them?

Regards,
--Hawk

This post has been edited by RebHawk: Jul 12 2005, 22:16

[CelticRaven]

What you practice in dryfire, you apply in actual live fire. This isn't theory, ask one of my pistol students that I have had working with snap caps for 2 hours. I had one person that would not get over the slaming the muzzle down everytime he pulled the trigger. I setup a reflective target and put a laser sight on his pistol, loaded it with snap caps and had him fire 200 dry rounds trying not to move the laser off the 1 inch target at the end of the hall.

Guess what that cured?

On a seperate note, while I was down training with Flea, he gave me home work to get my neck and upper body more comfortable while laying prone looking through a scope for long periods of time. (I haven't been able to get as much practice as I want/need) but it is helping considerably.

As far as recoil goes I think almost every one of my new students goes though the pulling their shots low, due to trying to not let the pistol recoil. At this point I get about 5 rounds into excercies and tell them to stop worrying about it and let it happen for now. Guns recoil when you shoot them, thats what they do.

[Thomas W Bruner]

I dry fire all the time, even on the range before firing to warm up. I use snap caps, but I always keep them separate from my ammo. If you never dry fire you are missing one of the best training exercises.

When I was in the Marines, during the Veitnam era, before quals, we dry fired and snapped-in for a week before actually firing the weapon.

Tom

[JPBeck]

I dry fire my hand gun for 20 minutes every day, and make it out to the range twice a month. It’s all I can do. Anyways I have rules that I follow while dry firing.

Rule #1— I dry fire only in my basement (w/out snap caps, they don’t do anything for me).
Rule #2--- Ammo goes in another room
Rule #3--- I only aim at a target on the wall (never at the faces on a TV screen)
Rule #4--- Always present from the concealed
Rule #5--- Always train at ¾, to full speed
Rule #6--- Round out the sessions with malfunction drills (all three types)
Rule #7--- When the training is complete, I say out loud “this session is over”
Rule #8--- Then leave the room and load the gun

Before you start practicing make sure a professional looks you over, to see that you are presenting correctly—otherwise you will just be training in bad habits and developing those bad habits into muscle memory!

It’s important to focus while dry firing practice sessions, when you start to get sloppy, its time to quit. Everything you do while practicing imprints on your muscle memory—so take it seriously—they say you will only be about half as good in a life or death situation, as you are while training! So it is imperative that you train hard and focus on quality. Best advice I can give is focus on the front sight and look for the surprise break while practicing.

I basically do the same thing routine for shotgun, rifle, and long gun, only less frequently.

This post has been edited by jpbeck: Jul 13 2005, 11:33

[halpatbn]

Dry firing is essential to good rifle control, including but not limited to breathing, pulse, and trigger manipulation. All elements of gun posture as well as sight picture attainment, follow through and carry through for the lock time can be very nicely improved by dry firing.

Snap caps are an individual's choice. I do not use them and in 46 years I have never damaged a rifle. No rimfires, cap and ball, flintlocks, or older antique arms. Modern rifles should not experience any more damage during 2000 dry fire cycles than it would during 2000 live fire experiences, with the exception of barrel wear during live fire.

Flinching is responsible for more missed shots than all of the other phenomonon lumped together. Dry firing exercises significantly help cure this problem, and when coupled with the loaded/unloaded variable it can really help. I do not use dummy rounds but rather have an associate load the firearm or not load it as he sees fit. I then assume the position and discharge the whatever, and if it is empty and I flinch or blink the eye, the video camera and my associate will let me know.

HB

[JPBeck]

That's a fantastic idea HB!

[JY]

Dry fire practice is a ritual in the military. There are 1911's that if the dry firing counted in the round count, have fired billions of rounds in their 60+ year lives (IMG:http://www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) In a well made weapon no damage will occur other than wearing your springs out after awhile...don't ry it with SIG 220,226,228,229's! the firing pin in these weapons have large cut in them for the FP retaining pin and the tip will breal off just ahead of this in the tapered part of the FP. The weapon will continue to operate but will eventually become a full auto pistol when the broken part lodges forward. The easy way to check for this problem is lock the slide back and tilt forward, the broken pin will extend out of the FP hole in the breech face. I've carried the P226 a lot and have had this happen twice, good weapon fired even with the stamped slide(old model) rusted through like a 68 chevy fender! But they all are non-dry fire weapons, this found out with the military ritual (IMG:http://www.snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) BTW I'm now an expert in repairing this problem lol.

Take care...Jim

[JY]

BTW the M9 Beretta can be dry fired til the cows come home. My M9 now has an actually good trigger, smooth too.

Take care...Jim

[JPBeck]

Interesting, I've been carring a P228 for probably 10 years now, and its the weapon that I mostly dryfire with. I haven't had any problems with it (yet).
Do you think I should have the firing pin replaced? Or get a larger mag in the hopes that it does break!