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  • Semi Auto Or Bolt Action

    Ok....here is one for the experts and for me to try as soon as I get a holt of a good semi-auto sniper rifle.

    When having to engage mulitple targets at 500m and further, which is better to use, a semi-auto or a bolt and what is the time diff is any.

    Here is how I see it in theory...with a semi-auto, you have to wait for the recoil to aquire a new target, but you don't have to break your grip to load another round. Depending on your wpn, you may not have the accuracy of a bolt action out to distance and lose some the more rds you fire.

    I prefer a bolt for pin pt shooting out to distance, but then again the only semi's I have shot are the old M21's and they were pretty worn at that time. I can shoot fairly quickly with a bolt, but have to break my grip to work the bolt. The good thing is I can aquire a second tgt as I am working the bolt...

    So the question is...what is the best tradeoff?????
    Life's Tough, but it's a lot tougher if you are stupid.
    John Wayne

  • #2
    Hey Brother,
    There's a lot to that question. One would be how much accuracy is enough? While bolts hold the edge in accuracy, guys like George Gardner are building AR10s that may be capable of groups as small as 4" at a thousand yards. One of his .260s did it at Blackwater a while back. A number of the semiautos out there are capable of three quarter MOA or less, in the right hands and with the right ammunition.
    As I understand it, during Vietnam, the Army tested a few bolt guns, following the lead of the Marine Corps, but ultimately the Army Snipers preferred the M21 for it's immediate shots on tap, and were willing to accept the small loss in accuracy. The M21 was accurate enough for thier needs.
    How many targets? My Corrections Department, arms the Snipers with H&K PSG 1 semiautos, or so I've been told...they won't let me play with em yet ...After review, multiple targets on a mass exodus falls in thier plan...Of course, a good perimeter should account for that, but what do I know...I have heard that if shots are fired, they prefer to have the Sniper taking them.
    How often do most Snipers, Military or otherwise, get the opportunity to safely engage more then four or five targets at range?The old axiom of no more then three shots per contact, or at least per position, still holds water with some of the Snipers I've read and listened to. Some feel that with the continious advent of counter sniper systems, even less shots, on the order of one well placed hit per engagement might be the new plan...
    How far beyond the five hundred yard mark? There aren't too many semiautos that can run with the big bolts, ie 300 Winchester Magnum and higher. There are AR10s in .300 RSUM, and .300 WSM. There is also the Walther that goes up to .338LM I think...There was supposed to be a company releasing an AR10 variant in the .338LM as well, but that, at least thus far seems to have gone the way of the dodo...
    I guess in the end, like everything else, it's mission specific, and has it's strengths and weaknesses...Of course, I'm no Sniper, so this is all just speculation ...
    I'd be interested in seeing what others have to say on the matter, as well.
    Respectfully,
    Harry
    "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
    "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
    "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

    Comment


    • #3
      I’ve been a long time proponent of the bolt rifle over the semiautomatic rifle for sniping. This point of view was forged after many years and many dollars spent trying to make a M1A be a sniper rifle.

      I’m now looking for a good recipe for crow. I just took delivery of a George Gardner built AR-10 and although my research has only just begun this rifle is showing great promise. It will shoot sub MOA groups with good ammunition and will do it as fast as you can press the trigger.

      I’ve got a MGM Precision Sniper Target. This target has a “T” shaped “eye-box” that has a one inch slot. Behind this slot is an armored door that is knocked open with a hit to expose a portion of the door to the side of the target’s head.


      I can open and close this eye-box door in 1.4 seconds (buzzer to second shot) from a distance of 125 yards with my new AR-10 using ball ammunition. Double tapping iron maidens at 300 yards is child’s play. I have only begun to explore the capabilities of the semiautomatic in the sniper roll but I am pretty happy so far.
      Kevin

      Comment


      • #4
        Kevin, I was just looking at that target last night and seeing if I had enough dimes hidden to order one up for my christmas present. Now you rats have got me thinking about the AR-10. I would be interested in knowing more about your test results, especially out to 500-800 meter range. If it still is holding tight, then I may be inclined to try one out....once I trade off some guns...how much are the AR-10's going for anyhoot???
        Life's Tough, but it's a lot tougher if you are stupid.
        John Wayne

        Comment


        • #5
          I prefer a bolt action, but the technology in semi-auto SWS is rapidly improving, the only problem I see in real world sniping is that two many shots from your position can get you killed, unless you are shooting during an operation when there is a firefight is going on, and it is hard to determine where "your" shots are coming from. I hear the AR10 is a fine SWS.

          Tom
          T.Bruner

          Comment


          • #6
            I was already anxiously awaitng the arrival of my GA Precision AR10. Thanks Kevin, now I am really looking forward to it!

            I had heard all kinds of good things, and now I hear even more about this rifle. I have always wanted an autoloader to use in the PD world as a precision rifle, just never found one that was truly accurate and consistant enough that didn't require a second mortgage. I heard good stuff about the Knight's but damn $3400.00 for a fancy AR10? I even took a run at an M25 from Springfield. It finally got to where it shot okay, but it is also way many bucks. I never really was able to get comfortable with it either. I am much more confortable with the AR platform. George seems to be building a great AR10 and for a reasonable price. I can hardly wait!

            Dave
            Dave Bahde

            Training is the key to survival, the harder you train, the more likely you are to survive!

            Comment


            • #7
              I got to see one of those GAP AR-10s at the SPSC and I must say it's a good lookin' stick. The guy who had it seemed to be doing alright with it even though he had only had it a short time, and I don't think he had his dope on it yet. It sure was pretty though, and felt as solid as a rock.

              Cheers
              "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
              -Thomas Jefferson

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey Alf,
                Here's another Organization's opinion on the idea of a semiauto sniper weapons system...You may be familiar with them ...
                7.62mm Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS)
                FBO DAILY ISSUE OF OCTOBER 18, 2003 FBO #0690
                MODIFICATION


                $this->unconvert_size(12, 10 -- 7.62mm Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS))

                Notice Date
                10/16/2003

                Notice Type
                Modification

                Contracting Office
                US Army ARDEC, AMSTA-AR-PC, Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey 07806-5000

                ZIP Code
                07806-5000

                Solicitation Number
                W15QKN-04-X-0401

                Response Due
                11/17/2003

                Point of Contact
                Stephanie Pascale, Contract Specialist, (973)724-2774

                E-Mail Address
                Email your questions to Stephanie Pascale

                Description
                This amendment is being issued to re-post the original sources sought/market survey announcement. This is due to formatting issues encountered with the original announcement. The U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command, Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (TACOM-ARDEC), Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000 is interested in acquiring market information on a 7.62mm semi-automatic sniper system (SASS) capable of delivering precision fire primarily on anti-personnel targets out to a range of 1,000 meters. This system must be a man portable, shoulder fired system utilizing military standard 7.62x51mm caliber ammunition but optimized for the open-tip M118LR long range ammunition. Additionally, M993 Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition will be fired based on specific mission requirements. Compatibility with the existing family of military 7.62x51mm caliber ammunition is also required. The primary components of the system include a rifle, detachable bipod, hard transport/storage case(s), soft carrying case(s), cleaning/maintenance equipment, and manuals. The weapon will have a flash/sound suppressor, high capacity (up to 20-round) detachable box magazines; rails/mounting surfaces for mounting fire control (optics, backup iron sights and aim- light) systems; variable power optics/electro-optics (in order to engage targets between 50 and 1000 meters); and an accompanying spotting scope with range estimation reticle(s) and a night vision interface. The potential contractor must be able to produce a minimum of 80 systems per month with a production surge capability to 120 systems per month. Spare parts and logistic support packages will also be required. The potential contractor will also be required to supply depot level maintenance support based within the Continental U.S. (CONUS). The SASS must be a direct line of sight system capable of engaging primarily personnel targets out to 800 meters (1,000 meters desired) and be a rugged and highly reliable system that minimizes both muzzle flash and blast signatures during firing. The SASS operational weight, complete with suppressor, day optical scope and magazine (unloaded)should be less than 16 pounds. It should have durable, anti-corrosion finishes or be constructed from corrosion resistant materials or be constructed from materials which resist exposure to solvents and cleaners. All external/exposed surfaces should be dull and non-reflective. The objective external color is tan, gray-green, gray or taupe. The SASS should include a maintenance/cleaning kit containing all operator level repair parts and tools. Operators and maintenance manuals will also be required. Components requirements are as follows: The rifle must be highly accurate when firing the M118LR (primary cartridge) and M993 Armor Piecing ammunition and be compatible with military standard 7.62x51mm. It should have an adjustable trigger pull (desired); have a detachable box magazine with a minimum capacity of 5 rounds and maximum 20 round capacity; have an easy to operate and positive safety; and have no parts which can be improperly assembled to the detriment of weapon performance. The rifle should also have a minimum barrel life of 5,000 rounds and be easily disassembled into components. The maximum length of the system should not exceed 48 inches and should come equipped with a sling and bipod. The optical sighting system must provide suitable resolution to allow target identification at the maximum effective range of the system; provide a threaded interface to accept LASER protection; be detachable; and interface with a Picatinny type rail IAW MIL-STD-1913. The optical sighting system should have a scaled reticle to aid in range estimation; repeat zero within 1/2 MOA when removed and then reinstalled on the weapon; have adjustable windage and elevation controls; provide sufficient adjustment to compensate for the ballistic drop of the M118LR out to the maximum effective range of the system; remain watertight when submerged in water; come equipped with dust covers; be provided with a hardened carrying case for protection during airborne operations. The component carrying case should be capable of storing all system components and protect system components during hot, cold, rain conditions, transportation and storage. An objective requirement is to provide protection to the system during parachute airdrop and subsurface deployment (33 ft threshold, 66 ft objective). A drag bag soft case is also required for man pack infiltration of the system. If your firm has either an existing or developmental item which meets the specified requirements please provide brochures or other information relative to performance of your product. This is a market survey, not a pre-solicitation notice. There is no formal solicitation available at this time. If a formal solicitation is generated at a later date, a solicitation notice will be published. No award will be made as a result of this market survey. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. The Government reserves the right to reject, in whole or in part, any private sector input as a result of this market survey. See Note 25.

                Web Link
                US ARMY TACOM-Picatinny Procurement Network


                Record
                SN00453243-W 20031018/031016213206 fbodaily.com

                Source
                FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice[/b]
                Respectfully,
                Harry
                "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
                "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
                "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Looks much like the requirements that went out for the M24 SWS...actually, it looks like they are discribing the M24 SWS with all its componants.
                  Life's Tough, but it's a lot tougher if you are stupid.
                  John Wayne

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    alpha,

                    Isn't the M24 and bolt action?

                    Tom
                    T.Bruner

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      no no no no no! I will say it again... no no no no no

                      Where should I start to list the problems? What testing do you want me to start with? How many times can I say no!

                      Stay away from the semi's. There are so many police depts, feds, and military that liked the idea in the beginning and thought they were wonderful as an SWS, then a short while after dumping the money in they found out that it was not what it seemed.


                      no no no no no
                      Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                      Thomas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hey Thomas,
                        I really hate it when you beat around the bush and sugar coat things ...
                        Why don't you just tell everyone what you really think ?
                        Respectfully,
                        Harry
                        Hey Alf,
                        It sounds like they want the Knight's Stoner SR-25 Mk 11 Mod 0, that the SEALs have been playing with for a while. Either that, or the unconfirmed ArmaLite AR10Ts that are being deployed with US and Allied forces in Assganistan and Iraq impressed someone ...
                        Respectfully,
                        Harry
                        "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
                        "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
                        "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are at least a dozen police departments a Federal agency or two, and soon the US Army that are sorry they went this route. There is currently a discussion going on through the Sniper’s Online (police/mil only) email system on this topic. Everyone that has responded either has these systems or has worked directly with a department that has these systems, and every one of them is greatly disappointed with the end results. Sure shots are fast, but they don’t hold specs and they aren’t happy with the accuracy.

                          One of the units being test for the US Army was brought to a training event by an Instructor and I watched him for an entire week fight with the system. The accuracy was pretty poor beyond 300 yards and really went to hell starting at 500. Beyond that and it was a complete crap shoot. Somewhere around 700 or 800 the scope ran out of adjustments because of the lack of sloped base and then it was a mil-dot hold and pray kind of shot.

                          At the SPSC this year there were 3 semi guns that I watched for three days of “field” shooting in less then perfect conditions. All three had major problems from repeated jams, to a cracked gas tube or barrel block or some horse s*@t like that, to being too sensitive to have field condition shooting positions applied to it without degrading accuracy beyond a reasonable level. All three of these systems had world class shooters behind them, and that was the only thing that saved them. If a average or less then average shooter was behind those systems, then the those weapons would have been completely combat ineffective.

                          If fast is what you want, then start working with the 5-shot and 10-shot drills that we at SP stress. If engaging multiple targets at carrying distances is what you need, then let us work with you on the Horus reticle (as soon as we find a scope we are happy with) and you can get to the point where you hit 5 targets at unknown distances from 400 – 800 yards in less then 20 seconds. If your mission calls for fast and far, you can get there with a little practice, and the end results will be much better.

                          SpecOps, so you fully understand...NO NO nO Noo nnoooo NOOooOOo Do not go the semi route
                          Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                          Thomas

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hey Thomas,
                            Should I take it that you don't want to buy my AR10T?
                            Respectfully,
                            Harry
                            "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
                            "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
                            "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For fast man size targets at distances out to 400 yards, maybe. BUT for you... no no n o noo oo nnn ooo o nonono nononononO

                              Bring your Ar10 to the dance and we'll teach you a thing or two. If these rifles were everything people claim they are, then they would be the rifle of choice of "sniper" competitions. BUT in reality, when these things show up, they jam, they don't hit squat most of the time, and they break more often then the bolt guns.

                              Any more questions ya silly rabbit?
                              Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                              Thomas

                              Comment

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