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  • cmshoot
    started a topic A different 360 degree threat scan

    A different 360 degree threat scan

    Always nice taking a class from an Instructor who looks at things differently from you.

    I recently took a 1 day "Dynamic Fighting Rifle" class from Erik Lund and Tod Litt of USSA. Erik showed a Threat Scan where you actually turned around 360 degrees. I've always taught a very deliberate scan, but staying faced in the direction of the last known threat and looking over your shoulders. I agree that the main reason that this technique is taught is that we train on a 180 degree flat range and Instructors don't want students turning around. I don't see a problem with the technique on the range, since it incorporates 2, 180 degree pivots, which should be part of the training anyways.

    We were doing it with carbines, but it could be easily done with a handgun as well, when using the "SUL Position". For those of y'all that might not know, I have posted some pics of the SUL Position below.

    Here is a video of me doing their version of the 360 degree Threat Scan. Let's hear some comments on it.

    http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/B..._03-180scan.mp4

    Attached Files

  • LaRue556
    replied
    Ah I see. Re-positioning and opening up the field of view to keep eyes on both. Makes sense.

    And yes... Semper Gumby.

    Leave a comment:


  • cmshoot
    replied
    LaRue, welcome to Paradise!

    In a lone situation, yes, I would pivot and engage, as long as I felt 100% that the threat I had already engaged to my front was no longer a threat. If I wasn't comfortable turning my back on the original threat, my best bet might be to back away in such a manner as to keep both threats in my vision. As you were facing your original threat, say the new threat is coming from 5 o'clock, I would back towards 9 or 10 o'clock.

    I know; I don't recommend backing up in a stressful environment, but, I also say "Don't ever say NEVER or ALWAYS!" The situation is dynamic and fluid and the motto of the day is "Semper Gumby", which translates to "Always Flexible".

    Anybody have a better idea?

    Leave a comment:


  • LaRue556
    replied
    I know this is old but I wanted to add a little to it.

    I have never been in combat as most people would describe it and I've limited time in sim-training role.

    Shep, we took that class together and that 360 degree scan was the first scan that I was ever taught. I got what you said about the deliberate movement and thinking through the scan process back then...and I still get it now a year later. To be quite honest I hadn't really developed much of a fighting mindset then. And hey, I'm still young..who knows what I don't know. So since that was my first time getting into a scan process, it was the ONLY scan I wanted to practice.

    Being limited to where I live with indoor ranges, I had to look over the shoulder with my carbine and pistol.

    However, in the most recent pistol class I took from Erik and Tod, what they call Level II, the scan process was much like the one you said you teach. The same way that I had been forced to practice but with more deliberate steps. Shoulders square to threat, face clockwise over shoulder back all the way to the six, work back counter-clockwise to twelve and check original threat again, keep working counter-clockwise to six, and then work clockwise again to check the threat...then check weapon. As another member already posted... That 360 might be better for a long gun where maneuvering would lend itself to being squared up and rockin' rounds.

    I'm still not sure how I feel about turning my back to the direction where I KNOW someone just came from...and the guy is laying there with who knows how much blood pressure...and who knows what in his pockets/waistband to pluck me while I'm looking for his buddies behind me.

    That being said...you can see me in this picture looking behind me. Say that I did see a threat there....sure would be nice to have been facing him to fight and shoot as normal while reassessing/reaching cover. As a lone regular guy, what would I do in this pictured position? Pivot and shoot? Someone tell me...because I don't know...





    Environment and alone vs. with team obviously plays into this as well. In my limited experience I've never not had someone covering a direction I've had my back to...so this is a mental block for me. In addition, I don't really believe it was the movement that got me thinking "deliberately." It was learning that firearms aren't death-rays and waking up to the offensive/defensive mindset. From there I could understand and work either of those two scans with more rigor. Just offering that up since most people probably learned the static scan first while I went in reverse.

    As for the shoulder-switching thing....yes, that seems to me now to have more application in barricades.

    Still learning....

    Can't wait to do CPPM with ya'll in January.

    Leave a comment:


  • ss58
    replied
    [quote]
    Excellent post[/b]

    Leave a comment:


  • Boanerges
    replied
    The problem is resolved.

    My solution if implemened, is to under go elective surgery and have a second set of eyeballs implanted in the back of ones head.

    This however would require the wearing of a boony hat at all times with the brim turned down.

    Leave a comment:


  • cmshoot
    replied
    Excellent post.

    Like I said above, this threat scan has definitely got me thinking.

    Leave a comment:


  • usngunner
    replied
    Ok, I have some time to elaborate now and can hold forth on the topic.

    I don't think the new technique is the end all be all, but I do see it as a viable technique that would be very useful depending on the situation. It's something I'm going to try and train to do. It could very well be the best answer someday.

    And that is why I laugh so hard at all the arguing over the "new! Ultimate! BEST!" way of doing stuff. Every technique taught is nothing but a tool to do a job. No carpenter or mechanic in the world would go to work with one hammer or wrench in his tool box.

    The goal of training is to add tools to the toolbox. Not everything works for everybody. If you're not comfortable with it, it doesn't matter who it's named for or who's teaching it, it's not worth a tinkers damn to you is it? (Thank you D Maynard, K Good, N Volpe, and D Mitchell. I owe you guys still)

    Ok, no big deal, you've had a life lesson. Dump it and use something else. Find a couple of other tools that you do like and can use, put them in there instead and move along smartly.

    Regardless, get them out periodically and use or practice them.

    Back to security sweeps. (Threat Scans if you prefer.)

    In the Navy we ran two courses for Mark 1 Mod 0 squids doing shipboard security team stuff. Ships Security Engagement Weapons (SSEW) and Ships Security Engagement Tactics (SSET). Weapons was the pre-req for Tactics. Keep in mind that these are fleet sailors, Boatswain Mates, twidgets, radar dorks, com guys, sonar weenies, Crypto types, you name it, but guys that typically get to shoot for qual once a year. Not one iota of infantry training in the bunch. Yeah, highly skilled shooters and looters in the flesh.

    SSEW. We took the students out to the ranges for a week and did live fire with the M-14's, M-16's, 1911A1's, M92's, and Shotguns M870 and M500. Basic familiarization and firing then on to tactical movement. Basic shoot and scoot drills, tactical reloads, nothing too fancy but all useful to save your life someday.

    SSET. The next week we ran the tactics class. 3 days of classroom on slicing the pie, low light techniques, strong side, transitions, weak side, team movement, communication, etc. the final 2 days were force on force with paintball guns on our personal Ship. We had a decommissioned Diver tender that we ran training on. No lights, nothing. You had to learn lighting techniques or you were screwed.

    You want to learn scanning? Take a force on force class. After about the 2nd time you get lit up from the rear, you WILL CHECK 6! Trust me on this one. Taking a FOF class in the dark will also teach you unit integrity. Usually finding out there are now 7 shooters in what was a 6 man squad doesn't bode well.

    One rapidly learns why one does not crowd cover. The difference between cover and concealment. That all dark holes really do have guns. Why you don't want to be the Popsicle man. Lots of little tidbits not taught on the firing line.

    But probably most importantly, that you can win a gun fight with solid fundamentals and technique.

    When we tee-ed off on Thursday, typically a scenario would last 5-10 seconds after the students got on deck with 15-20 student casualties down on deck. A regular massacre. At the end of that week on Friday afternoon, by no stretch of the imagination were they "operators" but they were danged capable and were starting to give the staff a fair run for the money in the scenarios. Force on force works and greatly speeds up the learning curve.

    To that end, I honestly do not believe that you can learn the importance of the security/threat scan without engaging in some sort of combat. Either real, simunition, paintball, something that not only invokes real tactics and maneuvering but has the pain negative reinforcement aspect as well. With the caveat that you have to approach it as real. Taking an arm hit doesn't necessarily take you out of the fight, but that appendage is done. But you have to honestly evaluate your self as well and that's hard for some folks.

    If you are really interested in rounding out your skill sets I cannot over emphasize taking a force on force class. I do not consider playing paintball to be the same thing by the way. Way too many bad habits to learn running around hosing paint at 400 balls a minute.

    Leave a comment:


  • usngunner
    replied
    Dude on the left pirouetted but didn't do as thorough a scan as the guy on the right. That is what I think of as "range day" awareness.[/b]
    That's cuz the guy on the right is me!
    [/b]

    So it is. Well go figure.

    Leave a comment:


  • cmshoot
    replied
    Position SUL isn't a position that you work in. An example of a time to use it would be Man 1 moves behind the Man 2, who is in front of him. As he crosses behind Man 2, Man 1 reverts to Position SUL so as to not flag Man 2 with the muzzle. The instant Man 1 is no longer behind Man 2, Man 1 comes out of Position SUL and back into a more aggressive ready position.

    I see folks using Position SUL as a ready position all the time. This is wrong as can be, the position should not be used for that.

    If someone uses Position SUL incorrectly, then you run into the problems that Bo described. If you use it properly, then you do not have any of those problems.

    You should never move into a CQB environment in Position SUL; it is only used from time-to-time as a "safety" to keep from flagging your buddies. If I am moving in to engage, then my weapon is pointed directly at the perceived threat and my finger is in the trigger guard.

    So, Position SUL is not intended to be, and should never be used as, a ready or engagement position. It is a "safety" position that should be of a short duration. It is similar to Long Arm ready position that you would use when stacked tightly at a door, prepping for entry, and is used for the same reason.

    Bo, does this clear it up? I think there was a misconception as to what Position SUL is used for. This is quite understandable because, like a lot of stuff in tactics and techniques, I see it used wrongly on a regular basis.

    For ECQS handgun stuff, I use a variation of the C.A.R. System (Center Axis Relock).

    Leave a comment:


  • cmshoot
    replied
    It's just another technique. Some folks shy away from the technique you mentioned, Bo, because it is still easy for the finger to engage the trigger when startled.

    It's not a problem with the finger out of the trigger guard when I go at someone, cuz my finger is back in the trigger guard at that point. You can grab the weapon is ya want, but I'll get at least 1 load of 125grn Love outta the end, hopefully backatcha!

    Dude on the left pirouetted but didn't do as thorough a scan as the guy on the right. That is what I think of as "range day" awareness.[/b]
    That's cuz the guy on the right is me!

    Leave a comment:


  • Boanerges
    replied
    In CQB if you extend that trigger finger flat alongside the frame, I'll pin that finger and brake it then take the weapon away from you.
    However if you bend the finger, and place it ever so slightly into the trigger guard against the bottom portion of the receiver frame, not touching the trigger, the finger can't be pinned. Instead, the attempted pinning hand shoves the finger into the the guard. Try it, it works.
    Again in CQB, it's good having the weapon close to the body. With the weapon pointing straight ahead when grappeling with an opponent, one can forcefully extend the weapon straight ahead and take out an eye without having to fire the weapon.
    With the weapon pointed down, with thumbs touching, I can't strike with the weapon and I have to re establish my grip. In an "O $HIT" sitituation with heart rate up, if you try to strike with the weapon, you'll wind up striking the evil doer with back of your wrists. " IMO" and experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • longrangetoepepper
    replied
    Its origin lies in the movement you can make in very confined spaces. like small hallways.
    The weapon is very close on the body, while holding it in this manner its difficult for the triggerfinger to activate the trigger.
    Yes its kinda akward, but its functional.
    Ive seen our SF train on this, and its all makes sence when you see them apply this technique.



    Its origin[quote]
    My question is, what kind of "low guard/ready gun" stance is that, a mix of "yoga/zen" martial art form? Why the touching of thumbs?
    Looks like the weapon could be taken away fairly easly.
    What happens when the sodium and adrenaline dump takes place and tactile motor skills deminish, and gross motor movements rule the day?[/b]

    Leave a comment:


  • ss58
    replied
    [quote]
    One of the things I like about the 360 turn is that I think it will force students to do a more thorough scan. the difference in what I could see and make out was much better when I physically turned.[/b]

    Makes a lot of sense. I think because of my lack of formal training with threats at my 6 and half assing my scans when I did train I would do this naturally.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rickp
    replied
    people need to do the scanning in training just as seriously as they do in training. I agree that some guys with a lot of experience shooting an real world experience tend to relax at the range a little bit, but the new shooter doesn't have the experience to relaxed about it. He still need to build neuro pathways to the action becomes second nature under fire or after an engagement.

    When I teach standing behind the students I'll hold something in my hand or I'll ahve a few fingers up, when students scan I'll ask the class what was I holding. Most dont know. This also gets students into the habit of lookinf at hands not faces. Hand will kill you, faces might telegraph action or intent but hand will kill you.

    Boanerger,
    Have you never seent he SUL position??? There's nothing yoga or zen about it. While I agree the guy in the picture is a bit exagerated with the thumbs, the position is a good position when used at the right time before or after an engagement.

    It's all about mindset. The problem with most guys at the range is they just go to shoot but not also develop their mindest, and IMO mindest is just as important if not more important as they skill one develops with training.

    R.

    Leave a comment:

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