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  • A different 360 degree threat scan

    Always nice taking a class from an Instructor who looks at things differently from you.

    I recently took a 1 day "Dynamic Fighting Rifle" class from Erik Lund and Tod Litt of USSA. Erik showed a Threat Scan where you actually turned around 360 degrees. I've always taught a very deliberate scan, but staying faced in the direction of the last known threat and looking over your shoulders. I agree that the main reason that this technique is taught is that we train on a 180 degree flat range and Instructors don't want students turning around. I don't see a problem with the technique on the range, since it incorporates 2, 180 degree pivots, which should be part of the training anyways.

    We were doing it with carbines, but it could be easily done with a handgun as well, when using the "SUL Position". For those of y'all that might not know, I have posted some pics of the SUL Position below.

    Here is a video of me doing their version of the 360 degree Threat Scan. Let's hear some comments on it.

    http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/B..._03-180scan.mp4

    Attached Files
    www.precision-applications.com

    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

  • #2
    Off the cuff, I'm not a fan of turning my back to an area that just had a threat in it. I'd try to get into a defensive position then scan for more threats.

    As for transferring this to pistol training, how hard would it be for threat #2 to conceal himself as you begin the turn, if they haven't already engaged you? How likely are you to engage with a pistol without having a good idea of the complete threat picture? In a "dynamic fighting rifle" scenario, you're probably in a different threat environment to begin with.

    My thoughts, with zero experience, is to not modify your over the shoulders scan for pistols - training for different situations.

    Comment


    • #3
      One of the premises for this particular threat scan is that I am not going to turn unless I am 100% satisfied that my original threat is out of the picture.

      One of the things I like about the 360 turn is that I think it will force students to do a more thorough scan. What I see during classes is students doing diligent scans for the first hour, half-assing it the second hour (going through the motions) and not doing them at all on the third hour. Making an actual turn makes it harder to "go through the motions". Unless you wanna pirouette like a ballerina, you almost have to do a fairly thorough 6 check.

      I do a very thorough scan by turning my head and twisting my body, always have. Even so, the difference in what I could see and make out was much better when I physically turned.

      While I'm not 100% on board (yet), this one has certainly gotten me thinking.

      Erik's method of engaging threats to the strong side while moving laterally has got me re-evaluating how I do this. I've always been a "switch shoulders" guy when it comes to stuff like this, but really like his method, which is totally different. Switching shoulders isn't a problem, as long as you practice it diligently and often. His method is definitely easier to learn and master. Face it, most folks go severely down hill when they switch shoulders. You're not just switching shoulders, you're switching eyes and everything. Honestly, I shoot equally accurately with either hand/shoulder/eye, but I shoot significantly faster with my right hand/shoulder/eye. For most folks, keeping it in the strong shoulder is a blessing.
      www.precision-applications.com

      It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

      Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

      "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

      Comment


      • #4
        Dude on the left pirouetted but didn't do as thorough a scan as the guy on the right. That is what I think of as "range day" awareness.

        I think scan intensity has to do with experience, and the actual environment. I pay a heck of a lot more attention with actual living threats in the AO rather than popping paper on a firing line.

        That said, I think that in some situations it would be the heat. I know I would see more facing that way rather than going over the shoulder.

        Especially if you have a partner, that is how my buddy Chas and I fought. We would engage the threat then one would automatically pivot to check 6.
        "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

        "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

        "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

        "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

        Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

        Comment


        • #5
          My question is, what kind of "low guard/ready gun" stance is that, a mix of "yoga/zen" martial art form? Why the touching of thumbs?
          Looks like the weapon could be taken away fairly easly.
          What happens when the sodium and adrenaline dump takes place and tactile motor skills deminish, and gross motor movements rule the day?
          I stand with Israel !!!!!!!!!!!
          "Dogs best friend"
          "Every dog needs a friend"
          "Tyranny is but a mask that evil wears. Those who fail to perceive it as such, or perceiving it for what it is and deny or ignore it, are destined to be ruled and destroyed by it."
          "Good wife, good sons, good dogs, good guns, what more could one ask of life?
          " 'REAL WARRIORS NEVER CRY ' but it is permissible for their eyes to sweat from time to time"
          " Anyone who doesn't like dogs or guns, is a person never to be trusted!"
          (All the above, Yours Truly
          The only movement to which I want to belong is the bowel movement

          Comment


          • #6
            people need to do the scanning in training just as seriously as they do in training. I agree that some guys with a lot of experience shooting an real world experience tend to relax at the range a little bit, but the new shooter doesn't have the experience to relaxed about it. He still need to build neuro pathways to the action becomes second nature under fire or after an engagement.

            When I teach standing behind the students I'll hold something in my hand or I'll ahve a few fingers up, when students scan I'll ask the class what was I holding. Most dont know. This also gets students into the habit of lookinf at hands not faces. Hand will kill you, faces might telegraph action or intent but hand will kill you.

            Boanerger,
            Have you never seent he SUL position??? There's nothing yoga or zen about it. While I agree the guy in the picture is a bit exagerated with the thumbs, the position is a good position when used at the right time before or after an engagement.

            It's all about mindset. The problem with most guys at the range is they just go to shoot but not also develop their mindest, and IMO mindest is just as important if not more important as they skill one develops with training.

            R.
            Ineffective, unfocused violence ,and limp panicky half measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought through,
            professional, well executed violence never leads to more violence, because afterwards, all the other guys are dead. "On Combat"

            Comment


            • #7
              [quote]
              One of the things I like about the 360 turn is that I think it will force students to do a more thorough scan. the difference in what I could see and make out was much better when I physically turned.[/b]

              Makes a lot of sense. I think because of my lack of formal training with threats at my 6 and half assing my scans when I did train I would do this naturally.
              " May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't" General George S.Patton

              " Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"

              " The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail...the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation" Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper

              Comment


              • #8
                Its origin lies in the movement you can make in very confined spaces. like small hallways.
                The weapon is very close on the body, while holding it in this manner its difficult for the triggerfinger to activate the trigger.
                Yes its kinda akward, but its functional.
                Ive seen our SF train on this, and its all makes sence when you see them apply this technique.



                Its origin[quote]
                My question is, what kind of "low guard/ready gun" stance is that, a mix of "yoga/zen" martial art form? Why the touching of thumbs?
                Looks like the weapon could be taken away fairly easly.
                What happens when the sodium and adrenaline dump takes place and tactile motor skills deminish, and gross motor movements rule the day?[/b]

                Comment


                • #9
                  In CQB if you extend that trigger finger flat alongside the frame, I'll pin that finger and brake it then take the weapon away from you.
                  However if you bend the finger, and place it ever so slightly into the trigger guard against the bottom portion of the receiver frame, not touching the trigger, the finger can't be pinned. Instead, the attempted pinning hand shoves the finger into the the guard. Try it, it works.
                  Again in CQB, it's good having the weapon close to the body. With the weapon pointing straight ahead when grappeling with an opponent, one can forcefully extend the weapon straight ahead and take out an eye without having to fire the weapon.
                  With the weapon pointed down, with thumbs touching, I can't strike with the weapon and I have to re establish my grip. In an "O $HIT" sitituation with heart rate up, if you try to strike with the weapon, you'll wind up striking the evil doer with back of your wrists. " IMO" and experience.
                  I stand with Israel !!!!!!!!!!!
                  "Dogs best friend"
                  "Every dog needs a friend"
                  "Tyranny is but a mask that evil wears. Those who fail to perceive it as such, or perceiving it for what it is and deny or ignore it, are destined to be ruled and destroyed by it."
                  "Good wife, good sons, good dogs, good guns, what more could one ask of life?
                  " 'REAL WARRIORS NEVER CRY ' but it is permissible for their eyes to sweat from time to time"
                  " Anyone who doesn't like dogs or guns, is a person never to be trusted!"
                  (All the above, Yours Truly
                  The only movement to which I want to belong is the bowel movement

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It's just another technique. Some folks shy away from the technique you mentioned, Bo, because it is still easy for the finger to engage the trigger when startled.

                    It's not a problem with the finger out of the trigger guard when I go at someone, cuz my finger is back in the trigger guard at that point. You can grab the weapon is ya want, but I'll get at least 1 load of 125grn Love outta the end, hopefully backatcha!

                    Dude on the left pirouetted but didn't do as thorough a scan as the guy on the right. That is what I think of as "range day" awareness.[/b]
                    That's cuz the guy on the right is me!
                    www.precision-applications.com

                    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Position SUL isn't a position that you work in. An example of a time to use it would be Man 1 moves behind the Man 2, who is in front of him. As he crosses behind Man 2, Man 1 reverts to Position SUL so as to not flag Man 2 with the muzzle. The instant Man 1 is no longer behind Man 2, Man 1 comes out of Position SUL and back into a more aggressive ready position.

                      I see folks using Position SUL as a ready position all the time. This is wrong as can be, the position should not be used for that.

                      If someone uses Position SUL incorrectly, then you run into the problems that Bo described. If you use it properly, then you do not have any of those problems.

                      You should never move into a CQB environment in Position SUL; it is only used from time-to-time as a "safety" to keep from flagging your buddies. If I am moving in to engage, then my weapon is pointed directly at the perceived threat and my finger is in the trigger guard.

                      So, Position SUL is not intended to be, and should never be used as, a ready or engagement position. It is a "safety" position that should be of a short duration. It is similar to Long Arm ready position that you would use when stacked tightly at a door, prepping for entry, and is used for the same reason.

                      Bo, does this clear it up? I think there was a misconception as to what Position SUL is used for. This is quite understandable because, like a lot of stuff in tactics and techniques, I see it used wrongly on a regular basis.

                      For ECQS handgun stuff, I use a variation of the C.A.R. System (Center Axis Relock).
                      www.precision-applications.com

                      It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                      Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                      "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dude on the left pirouetted but didn't do as thorough a scan as the guy on the right. That is what I think of as "range day" awareness.[/b]
                        That's cuz the guy on the right is me!
                        [/b]

                        So it is. Well go figure.
                        "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

                        "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

                        "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

                        "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

                        Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok, I have some time to elaborate now and can hold forth on the topic.

                          I don't think the new technique is the end all be all, but I do see it as a viable technique that would be very useful depending on the situation. It's something I'm going to try and train to do. It could very well be the best answer someday.

                          And that is why I laugh so hard at all the arguing over the "new! Ultimate! BEST!" way of doing stuff. Every technique taught is nothing but a tool to do a job. No carpenter or mechanic in the world would go to work with one hammer or wrench in his tool box.

                          The goal of training is to add tools to the toolbox. Not everything works for everybody. If you're not comfortable with it, it doesn't matter who it's named for or who's teaching it, it's not worth a tinkers damn to you is it? (Thank you D Maynard, K Good, N Volpe, and D Mitchell. I owe you guys still)

                          Ok, no big deal, you've had a life lesson. Dump it and use something else. Find a couple of other tools that you do like and can use, put them in there instead and move along smartly.

                          Regardless, get them out periodically and use or practice them.

                          Back to security sweeps. (Threat Scans if you prefer.)

                          In the Navy we ran two courses for Mark 1 Mod 0 squids doing shipboard security team stuff. Ships Security Engagement Weapons (SSEW) and Ships Security Engagement Tactics (SSET). Weapons was the pre-req for Tactics. Keep in mind that these are fleet sailors, Boatswain Mates, twidgets, radar dorks, com guys, sonar weenies, Crypto types, you name it, but guys that typically get to shoot for qual once a year. Not one iota of infantry training in the bunch. Yeah, highly skilled shooters and looters in the flesh.

                          SSEW. We took the students out to the ranges for a week and did live fire with the M-14's, M-16's, 1911A1's, M92's, and Shotguns M870 and M500. Basic familiarization and firing then on to tactical movement. Basic shoot and scoot drills, tactical reloads, nothing too fancy but all useful to save your life someday.

                          SSET. The next week we ran the tactics class. 3 days of classroom on slicing the pie, low light techniques, strong side, transitions, weak side, team movement, communication, etc. the final 2 days were force on force with paintball guns on our personal Ship. We had a decommissioned Diver tender that we ran training on. No lights, nothing. You had to learn lighting techniques or you were screwed.

                          You want to learn scanning? Take a force on force class. After about the 2nd time you get lit up from the rear, you WILL CHECK 6! Trust me on this one. Taking a FOF class in the dark will also teach you unit integrity. Usually finding out there are now 7 shooters in what was a 6 man squad doesn't bode well.

                          One rapidly learns why one does not crowd cover. The difference between cover and concealment. That all dark holes really do have guns. Why you don't want to be the Popsicle man. Lots of little tidbits not taught on the firing line.

                          But probably most importantly, that you can win a gun fight with solid fundamentals and technique.

                          When we tee-ed off on Thursday, typically a scenario would last 5-10 seconds after the students got on deck with 15-20 student casualties down on deck. A regular massacre. At the end of that week on Friday afternoon, by no stretch of the imagination were they "operators" but they were danged capable and were starting to give the staff a fair run for the money in the scenarios. Force on force works and greatly speeds up the learning curve.

                          To that end, I honestly do not believe that you can learn the importance of the security/threat scan without engaging in some sort of combat. Either real, simunition, paintball, something that not only invokes real tactics and maneuvering but has the pain negative reinforcement aspect as well. With the caveat that you have to approach it as real. Taking an arm hit doesn't necessarily take you out of the fight, but that appendage is done. But you have to honestly evaluate your self as well and that's hard for some folks.

                          If you are really interested in rounding out your skill sets I cannot over emphasize taking a force on force class. I do not consider playing paintball to be the same thing by the way. Way too many bad habits to learn running around hosing paint at 400 balls a minute.

                          "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

                          "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

                          "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

                          "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

                          Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Excellent post.

                            Like I said above, this threat scan has definitely got me thinking.
                            www.precision-applications.com

                            It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                            Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                            "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The problem is resolved.

                              My solution if implemened, is to under go elective surgery and have a second set of eyeballs implanted in the back of ones head.

                              This however would require the wearing of a boony hat at all times with the brim turned down.
                              I stand with Israel !!!!!!!!!!!
                              "Dogs best friend"
                              "Every dog needs a friend"
                              "Tyranny is but a mask that evil wears. Those who fail to perceive it as such, or perceiving it for what it is and deny or ignore it, are destined to be ruled and destroyed by it."
                              "Good wife, good sons, good dogs, good guns, what more could one ask of life?
                              " 'REAL WARRIORS NEVER CRY ' but it is permissible for their eyes to sweat from time to time"
                              " Anyone who doesn't like dogs or guns, is a person never to be trusted!"
                              (All the above, Yours Truly
                              The only movement to which I want to belong is the bowel movement

                              Comment

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