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  • Pump vs Auto

    Guys. First let me say I have more shotguns than sense both auto and pump. I have been pondering why my 870's are my go too. I had my 80's vintage H&K Benelli 121 and FN SLP at the range recently and started thinking if its just because its always been that way????
    Seems like issues like short stroking under duress don't come up. Everybody thinks that they are well trained. It seems like a leftover 80's mentality. The ammo available is far different from the 80's as are the offerings in semi auto's.

    Would like to hear from the group.
    " May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't" General George S.Patton

    " Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading"

    " The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail...the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation" Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper

  • #2
    I've shot both pumps and semi-autos in competition and carried them for duty.
    I've owned Benelli Super 90, Remington 1100, and Winchester Super-X Model 1 semi-autos. The Benelli was by far the most reliable.
    I've used/owned Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 pumps.
    I've had far less problems with the Rem 870/Mossberg 500 than with several autos.
    That said, I've hunted dove in Argentina where I fired 1000-1200 rounds day out of Beretta 20 gauge semis and had virtually no problems. If I was using a pump my arm would have fallen off.
    My only current shotgun is a Rem 870 cut down to 18.5" barrel with choke tubes and an extended magazine. It does everything I need it to.
    I've used both standard and pistol grip stocks. I found the standard stock to be quicker to pick up and get into action than the pistol grip. I only use standard stocks on my shotguns.
    "Kill evil. It's how quality of life is achieved. Carry on."---Ted Nugent

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    • #3
      I started my combat shotgun experience with a USMC-issue Remington 870 while doing jungle patrols in the Philippines. 20" barrel, standard wood stock and wood LE forend and a bayonet lug. Was toting that weapon in my first firefight, guess that's why I've always had a soft spot for the Remington 870.

      Years later I become a cop and am issued an 18" Remington 870. A year later I join the SWAT Team and am issued a 14" Ithaca 37, one of the older "slam fire" models. Loved that scattergun. I used it when I attended Shotgun Instructor.....had to really be on the ball to pass that course with that shotgun! I installed a sidesaddle and ghost ring sights on her.

      I later turned that in and drew a 14" Benelli M1. Ghost ring sights, side saddle, and a Surefire forend. Great gun, reliable as all get-out.

      During this time period I got into Cowboy Action shooting and got really good at running a Winchester 1897 12ga, made in 1903. Still have that gun. Slicker n' snot on a doorknob!

      Left the PD for the better paying fields of Fed-dom. My side business in firearms tactics and training was really picking up and I needed a good shotgun to teach courses with. I picked up a used Remington 1100 and modified it. Cut the barrel to 19", opened the gas ports, installed a sidesaddle, synthetic Speedfeed stock and forend, a sidesaddle, ghost ring sights and a white light. She ran like a champ, but the minute I got all the work done I thought, "This ain't what I want."

      Sold the 1100 and bought a Benelli M2 Tactical with full-length pistol grip stock and ghost ring sights (have you noticed yet that I like ghost ring sights?). Installed a full-length mag tube, Surefire forend, Mesa Tactical Picatinny top rail with sidesaddle, and a Burris FastFireII. Great shooter and I could run her smooth, but she wouldn't function with that cheapo ammo from WalMart that is so tempting to train with. She ran fine with Reduced Recoil ammunition, but I had 2 cases of Remington Managed Recoil buckshot I got in payment from a local SWAT Team......she'd choke and puke on every 3rd round. I was planning on having the bolt heavily fluted so as to make her more reliable with lower-powered ammunition, as well as having the lifter welded up to save my thumb.

      About that time I started looking at either SBS'ing her with a 14" barrel, or selling her and buying a 14" Benelli M4. I walked into Dixie Ammo Dump and something else caught my eye: a 12" Remington 870 from Scattergun Tech. Started life as an 18" LE Wingmaster from NC State Corrections. DAD sent her to Scattergun Tech for full mod into a 12" Border Patrol model. This included installation of tritium Trak Lock sights, new synthetic Remington furniture, replace/uprade all internals, and chopping the barrel. I sold the Benelli and bought her.

      Since I've had her, I've performed (or had performed) the following mods:
      1. Replaced the full-length buttstock with a Hogue model with a short LOP. Like JayCeeNC, I prefer a standard stock, but like them short. Oftentimes when teaching LE classes, I'm wearing body armor. I'd rather have a stock that's too short than too long.
      2. Replaced the forend with one of the new model Surefire DFS forends. It will be perfect, once I stipple it.
      3. Replaced the 12" cutdown barrel with a 14" factory Remington barrel with fixed Modified choke. Those are sweet shooting barrels, tight groups with reduced recoil 00 buck. I installed a Trak Lock tritium front sight to match the rear already on the gun.
      4. Scattergun Tech 1-shot extension with sling attachment and a GG&G rear attachment. I use a Blue Force Vickers 2-point sling.
      5. I came up with my own design of removable sidesaddle that works great. I'll do a separate article on it later.
      6. Had the action and magtube Cerakoted in Burnt Bronze, everything else is Graphite Black.
      7. The hard chromed bolt was driving me crazy.....to much exposed silver. I new that Cerakote would eventually flake off that hard chrome. I thought of buying a replacement bolt, but instead had the chrome one coated in IonBond. She's black now!
      8. I bought a GG&G Picatinny rail for the top. I'll need to drill and tap her, which doesn't bother me. Can't decide whether or not I'll ever actually mount some sort of optic on her. Don't think so, but it's nice to have the option.

      This is my perfect shotgun. If the ammo will fit in the mag tube, it will function and fire. I can run the cheapest shit I can find and she'll run just as well as if I'm shooting the finest tipple. Nice size and weight, the short barrel shifts the balance back right between my hands. When slung and cinched up tight, she's totally out of the way and doesn't obstruct me from doing anything but lowcrawling. I can shoot Federal Reduced Recoil 00 buck with the Flite Control wads at 25yds or more and keep all the pellets on a man-sized target. 25yds is as far as I've tried so far. With slugs, I can put all rounds on a 2/3 steel silhouette at 100yds.

      I prefer pumps overall. When a newbie asks me about a shotgun for home defense, though, I usually tell them to get one of several reliable autoloaders and run good, full-power factory ammo through. Much simpler to run, if the person ain't gonna train much with it.
      www.precision-applications.com

      It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

      Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

      "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

      Comment


      • #4
        I too am a pump goto guy.

        I've had tooley seeds (giant swamp weeds) jam up the pump mechanism, but grabbing the slide with two hands, dropping to my knees and slamming the butt-stock on the ground has always unstuck it. LOL, I watched a guy break off his charging handle on a semi trying that move.

        But, I differ from John, I have speedfeed pistol grip stocks on my shotguns and really like them. It makes the pointing similar to my AR's and helps the interchangeability in my opinion.

        YMMV.

        "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

        "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

        "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

        "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

        Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

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        • #5
          A couple of further points.
          Remington 870
          I run a short (12" LOP) stock and LE forend. It's made by SpeedFeed, but a standard stock without the ammo carrying capability. I'm not a big guy, and the shorter stock fits much better, especially if I'm wearing a coat or armor for a class.
          I also use a solid stainless steel shell follower for reliability, and a big head safety.
          My Rem 870 has a ventilated rib barrel. I much prefer it for heat wave dissipation when the barrel gets warm. I sent it to Mike Orlen, the "Barrel Mechanic" up in Mass. and had him cut it down, install choke tubes, and lengthen the forcing cone. Superb work, reasonable prices, and quick turnaround.
          I have a standard bead sight on the barrel.

          Benelli
          When I first got my Benelli M1 to use in competition, I added a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad and a sidesaddle. Guess what? It didn't cycle reliably. The Benelli needs recoil to operate, and when you dampen the recoil impulse it won't work as designed. I went back to a standard butt, took off the sidesaddle, and installed Wolff 25% reduced mainspring. It would cycle any and everything 100% after that.
          I took a file and rounded the sharp edges on all four sides of the loading port on the bottom of the gun. When shooting a lot and fast, the sharp edges would tear up my fingers.

          General
          When I was shooting a lot of 3-gun competition a bunch of us tested all kinds of configuration to find out which was fastest.
          We timed picking up the shotgun with it lying on a table, standing on the butt against a barricade, and a few other positions. We found the standard stock to be faster to get into firing position than the pistol grip stock. The extra hand movement needed to manipulate our hands around the pistol grip took more time.
          We also timed shooting with a bead sight versus a ghost ring. We would unconsciously take extra time to line up the front and rear sights in the ghost ring, even though our accuracy out to 75 yards with slugs was not any better than with a plain bead. The bead is just quicker.
          Now, that was a few guys who were good shotgun shooters, so it's not a definitive end-all conclusive test with any scientific credibility. YMMV, etc. But that's why, in competition, we all shot a standard stock and a bead sight. I still refer that setup.
          On my Benelli I stuck a small piece of velcro on the left side of the forend as a "witness mark" to align my left thumb so I'd have the same hand position each time. Easy to feel it every time you shoulder the gun for consistency of position. On the Rem 870 I haven't found it necessary, as my hand is going to be moving when I shoot it anyway.
          "Kill evil. It's how quality of life is achieved. Carry on."---Ted Nugent

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          • #6
            I'm thinking of sending my 14" Remington barrel to Vang Comp to be backbored and have forcing cone lengthened.
            www.precision-applications.com

            It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

            Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

            "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

            Comment


            • #7
              Consider Mike Orlen.
              He doesn't have a website, if you Google him you'll find a link to a .pdf with his price list. He is best reached by phone, as I recall, he's not much on emails.
              Here is a link to a guy who recommends him and has his price list posted. Not sure how up to date the prices are.
              I ran across him looking for barrel work and seeing the recommendations for him in some of the big shotgun forums.

              Mike Orlen Barrel Work
              "Kill evil. It's how quality of life is achieved. Carry on."---Ted Nugent

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks, John.
                www.precision-applications.com

                It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have a pair of mossberg pumps. I do want to get an auto sometime though...

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