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  • Sept 1st through Sept 15th

    Don't forget to vist the HQ page and cast your vote http://www.snipersparadise.com/index_hq.htm


    “Sniper Competitions”, do we need them and what are they good for? is it a sport, or a gathering for militia and sniper wannabes?

    a. Yes, they are a fun sport.
    b. Yes, they are a good source of training since you compete in situations you do not normally train for.
    c. No, they are a gathering for militia types and wannabes.
    d. No, its just another gimmick to take people’s money
    e. A&B
    f. C&D
    g. Other? Please explain
    Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
    Thomas

  • #2
    I believe that Sniper competitions are an excellent source of training.

    When you go to the range yourself and practice, you can tend to do a lot of the same drills over and over. Also, you will tend not to "push the envelope" and test your skills.

    Competitions are a good place to point out deficiencies in your training, your SWS and in your support equipment, without it resulting in injury, death or liability.

    Now, if we would just have some closer to my house.....
    www.precision-applications.com

    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

    Comment


    • #3
      Marksmenship, has been a part of this country sence the begining. So why not take part in learning more and competing with the best? I don't think you would ever have to worry about a crazy showing up and one of these matches. Most folks in this sport are dedicated riflemen that just want to learn and have fun.


      Flea
      "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

      Training the US, one shooter at a time.






      http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

      Comment


      • #4
        My answer is A&B. I don't feel these events are for "militia types and wannabes" I think those types first, would get weeded out and ostracized and second, I think those mentalities go for more of the Rambo, door kicker, SF wannabe roles rather than the solitude and "behind the scenes" role of the sniper.
        And as far as a gathering goes, I feel that for the LE or MIL sniper, these events offer an opportunity to communicate with others who have or will experience the same type of scenarios. They can share experience or advice.
        Also there are plenty responsible, law abiding, top quality shooters who want to take their skill to a higher (read different) level rather than sitting on a concrete bench punching paper. I'm not saying BR shooters are not skilled or can't shoot tactically because that is not the case, please don't read anything into what I said. There are those of us, including myself, who like the challenge that a "tactical match" provides that a BR match may not. I am not attracted to BR shooting personally though I have a great deal of respect for the skill.
        This is only my opinion, just some thoughts to throw out there for discussion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Scopes,

          I don't think anyone will take offense to what you said. BR is not a dirty word. There are three types of BR, short range BR, 100/200&300 yds. The new 600 yd BR and last but not least 1000 yd BR.

          I've never shot the short range BR but I feel there is alot more skill involved with it then any of the other BR matches. 30 years ago, if you didn't want to shoot High Power but wanted to shoot longrange you shot 1000 yd BR. It was the only game around.

          I know alot of folks that shoot short range BR really like it, but sitting down to a bench and shooting 100 to 300 yds never appealed to me. I shot 1000 yd BR for many years, until it became an equipment race. Until they introduced the light rifle class it was pretty boring. Then aleast you could bring your tactical rifle and have alittle fun.

          The fact that some of us are so anal about reloading and our weapons, is what bugs most folks, I think. Though I have found that most tactical shooters that reload for percision shooting are just as anal about removing the variables from the loads as well as all their equipment as anyone. Nothing wrong with wanting the best, IMHO

          Regards, Flea
          "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

          Training the US, one shooter at a time.






          http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

          Comment


          • #6
            From a purely political viewpoint sniper matches are important because only a free people can hold them.

            Jimro
            "How you train is EXACTLY how you fight" Col (Ret) Robert B. Nett, awarded Medal of Honor

            Comment


            • #7
              Never been to one,just LE schools/Miltary Schools.If the matches are anything like the classes It has to be alot of fun.I enjoyed all my sniper schools.Now that I'm almost set up to shoot I'll have to check one out.I know there are some in Wyoming-Hope I can find one closer to Minnesota-Voted for e (A&
              XX-Special Forces Assn. (MN
              Retired Deputy Sheriff
              SSG Airborne Inf. (Ret

              Comment


              • #8
                Now that I'm almost set up to shoot I'll have to check one out.[/b]
                ...shameless plug…I thought this would be a good topic with our up coming Sniper’s Paradise Sniper Challenge…

                http://snipersparadise.com/snipercomps/Sni...e/2004/2004.htm
                Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                Thomas

                Comment


                • #9
                  My answer is E, both A and B.

                  The definition of "snipe" by my gizmo is, "Shoot at an enemy from a concealed position." By this definition, I am not a sniper, unless you want to classify prarie dogs or gophers as enemies.

                  For many years I would only shoot to harvest animals, kill varmints, or sight in firearms. I found out that I really enjoy the shooting part of it more than field dressing critters. As a result I became a "shooter" and have thoroughly enjoyed shooting every type of firearm I could lay my hands on, black powder, center fires, rim fires, revolvers, rifles, full autos, semi autos, and singleshots. Accuracy has always been the end goal which I endeavoured to achieve. Always to improve my own proffeciencies I have sought the advice and expertise of those very proficient in the field. So, here I am, hanging out on a site where most of the individuals are striving to be extremely accurate on their very first round, be able to estimate distance to targets very accurately, dressing down to become very hard to see, and everyone likes rifles and gear. Neat place to hang out.

                  I personally believe that the skills, attitudes, and diciplines of Sniper training are all of advantage to a person in his passage through life. I personally have found a new area of challange in the long range one shot one hit concept of shooting. I have often shot long range using "sighters" to walk em in. Record fire isn't too bad if you can take a few sighters to measure wind and distance, but the one shot thing really takes much more skill and knowledge.

                  HB
                  Today, what goes up does not have to come down!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A and B.

                    I think Sniper competitions are one of the most challenging of all shooting sports.
                    In 1K benchrest, you get unlimited sighters during a given period to get your dope dialed in before your shots of record. The guns are different, the format is different, the targets are different. I love both, but if I had to choose one over the other as being more demanding skills wise, there's absolutely no doubt that sniper shoots are much more difficult.
                    When it comes to "One shot bullet placement" in the X ring, under varying conditions, unknown yardages, moving targets, radical angles, hostages covering half of the X ring, judging tough wind conditions correctly the FIRST time, and making your bullet hit the mark on the very first shot, sniper shoots take some serious skill and experience. Much more skill (In my opinion) than that required for BR, Highpower, hunter class, or other types of competitions. I've shot all the above, and hands down sniper competitions are the toughest of the bunch.
                    Since they are primarily designed to test a person's "True" abilities to place a bullet on target with the first shot, I think they are the purest test of one's long range shooting skill. Range estimation, reading wind/mirage, ballistics, and knowing your abilities/weapon system become everything if you only get one shot at a given target.
                    Most Rambo's or wanna-be's will avoid these kind of competitions, or only show up once. They blow a lot of hot air with their buddies about how "Good they are with a rifle", but when the clock starts, the BS stops.
                    Many years of dedicated practice, and training go into making a good sniper. Competitions such as these will weed out the big talkers, and wannabe's and leave only the dedicated, diligent and motivated snipers/shooters to share training and practice information with each other and push each other's limits and their own.
                    I think they are a VERY good thing. They make us ALL better at our game, whether it be for sport or survival.
                    Just my .02

                    JB
                    "We stand at the ready at Hell's front door. We are the sharpest, and most potent arrow in the quiver of last resort and upon us hangs the weight of being the final option. When it cannot otherwise be done, we are called. When lives are at stake and the specter of death roams freely, we are put into the fray. We go once more into the breach where others fear to tread. We do what others won't, or can't, and we are allowed no errors. For us mistakes mean death. We must train as if our lives and the lives of others hang in the balance for indeed they truly do. Spend this day and every other seeking perfection in the warrior arts."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Anyone that has been around here for a day or more will know that I am a bit opinionated on this topic. I have fought with and argued with other groups that feel these types of competitions should be limited to “Police and Military” only. Those groups think that SP is just “a flashy website” and “just in it for the money.” I have fought this battle since 1998 with these same groups and their hierarchy. The war of words ebbs and flows with time. The “other” side publishes all of their work, in essence, their opinion and knowledge is For Sale. While SP on the other hand, gives 100% of our opinions and 90% of our knowledge, away free. So along those lines, SP firmly stands behind allowing all walks of life compete in these events.

                      As mentioned in several posts above, there are those individuals out there that talk to their friends and on the internet, spouting off what a one shot wonder they are. Then the time comes for these competitions and those same people fade off quietly, giving every excuse in the book for why they cannot compete. Those people that are dedicated to shooting, and the “sport,” make the time to shoot. Even if the time they make is for only one competition at a local range with a small group of likeminded shooters. This is an expensive “sport” and it is an even more expensive job. Those true professionals that do this for a living buy their own rifles, their own optics, rangefinders, tac gear, and everything else that makes their job easier and that makes them more effective. These professional spend their own money so that if they are ever called to pull that trigger, they have every advantage at their disposal.

                      While on active duty, I thought I knew it all about sniping. I was the Distinguished Honor Graduate of my sniper class and lost the top Gun honors in a tiebreaker shoot-off. Our starting class size was 24 students. The finishing number was around 8. I ran pre sniper school classes for Battalions and Brigades as well as all Sustainment training for the units. I had an open door to the Battalion commander and was sought after by other units when they needed augmented scouts or snipers. I also had an open letter to instruct at the USASS, but my unit would not allow an asset like myself to leave. I was on top of the world and got what I wanted. The problem was, I only thought I knew what I wanted.

                      Then, as I was drawing close to my second and final ETS date, I hooked up with the guys from Autauga Arms and Hard Rock. This great group of guys got me into competition at the Ft Benning rifle and pistol matches. I did well at those local matches, so when they brought me the opportunity to shoot at the Storm Mountain sniper competition, I jumped at the chance. Needles to say, I went in to that competition with extremely high expectations. I ended up leaving that first major competition with a newfound respect for shooting.

                      In that first competition I learned more about MOA shooting and proper basic rifle techniques then the previous 8 years of military shooting ever thought of imparting to me. Before, I may have been outstanding at fieldcraft and military knowledge, but I didn’t know squat about shooting. I may have been spanked and sent home with my tail between my legs, but I was also sent home with a fire in my eyes. A fire that burned for more knowledge and more experience. That competition was the turning point in my shooting. Instead of becoming discouraged at my poor final showing, I drove away with an intense desire to dive into whatever it would take to become a top-notch shooter.

                      I try to impart in everyone this little lesson I learned. I try to let people know that it is OK if you finish toward the bottom of the roster at your first couple of competitions. As long as you walk away with new ideas, new training drills, new details on what gear works and what gear fails, then the monetary expense and time spent is well worth it.

                      SFC Carpentier has been to every Sniper Challenge. The fist two years he was toward the middle of the pack. The last three or four years he has been at the top. Pete is a perfect example of what can be accomplished with time, experience, and a desire to do better. For his efforts, the soldiers that train under him for real world events are better off. Those soldiers are getting true knowledge and outstanding skills that may save their lives, the lives of their fellow Soldiers or Marines, and the skills necessary to help protect our freedoms.
                      Knowing all this, the question is, do you want to be an internet armchair commando? Or, do you want to get out there and have fun learning to become a better shooter? The bullet is in your hands. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to set it on top of your computer? Or are you going to chamber that round and fire it into the heart of doubt and insecurity? Are you going to speak from a position of first hand knowledge? Or, what you read in books and around the internet? What are you going to do?
                      Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                      Thomas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bravo Zulu,
                        Well said. The gauntlet has been thrown down now who will rise up to accept the challenge?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The bullet is in your hands. What are you going to do with it?[/b]
                          I know what I am going to do with! I am going to send it down range in my next practice session!

                          Thomas, thanks for the kind words. I can still remember those days and those matches. Now I am a better shooter because I have put a lot of time and practice into it. I try to go out and shoot at least two times a week. During those practice sessions I will put at least 200 rounds downrange. I also shoot at least three big matches a year. I also now have better rifles, scopes and equipment. Also while shooting these matches I have found what I am strong at and what I am weak at. I then go back home and work on what I am weak on.

                          Like Thomas said, there are many here that TALK a good game, now it is time to see what you GOT!
                          "Learning to function under all types of situations and always maintaining good marksmanship skills is imperative to effective performance with the precision rifle."

                          SniperSustainment)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I voted for A&B I believe that competitions are one of the best places to learn. No matter how good you think you might be there is always someone there with an idea that can help make you a little bit better. Not to mention the comroderie and just plain fun to be had.
                            Diplomacy is the art of saying "NICE DOGGY"--- Until you find a huge rock to crush his skull with.

                            THE STRONG SHALL STAND, the week will fall by the wayside.

                            Recon Observe Mark And Destroy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'd vote B 2nd, then A&B 3rd, and I'd vote Thomas 1st for what he said above. I was with him at Ft. Benning, and Storm Mountain, and a couple of other places. Thing I remember most was he got pissed that I took his boonie hat and started styling the brim from pure flat to the broke in the middle front look. I thought he was going to kill me for that.
                              Some of those memories are my best memories of the competitions. The people (Thomas, Pete, Jacob and others), the sharing, and the time away from work.
                              Work is winning these days. 2 years and 25 days to go.

                              On the equipment part. Having participated in enough of those matches, having seen that the issue equipment is not up to any kind of winning position, having built at least 5 rifles JUST for competition, which won several comps, and seeing the trends there, I'd prefer to see less of an equipment race.
                              The most winning factory rifle is the AE. The second most winning rifle is the Built Competition Tactical rifle (my term). Both of these options run towards the 2 grand area or really close.
                              The best competition scopes are high dollar. I started with Leupold, and went to S&B and NXS, all of which are well over 1G.
                              So my competition rifles run to the 3G range and over. I can afford this, but most young cops cannot.
                              The battle Thomas has fought over Mil or LE only, is an interesting thing. I've been to the LE/Mil only, and been to matches with some serious civilian competitors. When you put them together, the civilians generally win. Wonder why that is (not really, Thomas and I both know why.).
                              Thomas touched on that when he mentioned what happened when he got out of the military and finished his experience with the military Sniper School. 75% or so of the Sniper School business is NOT shooting.
                              Matches that have no map reading, no navigation, both covert and overt, no observation exercises, no communications, and do not require reporting, both verbal and written, nor use of tactics (the 75% of what Thomas did in the military) are not real Sniper matches. They are shooting matches.
                              The LE and MIL definitely DO learn the shortcomings of their shooting training and their equipment failure rates at these specific type of shooting matches,
                              AND for that reason alone, are worth their weight in GOLD.
                              I'd go to the match if I was you guys.

                              Thomas may be doing this to plug for the match, but he has better reasons, its so you can go find out on your own, what he had bite him at Storm Mountain. Best learning experience you can have.
                              Go Thomas, preach on.
                              HatStyler(jw)

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