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  • #16
    [/b]

    Actually Mr. Purple, if you had paid attention in high school science you could make your own explosives. This is why its important to understand that you will never stop a determined terrorist who knows how to plan, prepare and execute a terrorist act. Its the sloppy ones that get caught. There are books out there that teach you how to make C-4, blasting caps and just about anything else you want to make....its like someone else already posted, most of this info is already in print.
    Life's Tough, but it's a lot tougher if you are stupid.
    John Wayne

    Comment


    • #17
      Sorry about the soapbox, I've been out on an OP looking for smuglers the last 3 days, and it could get even more dangerous if the general pop. got a handle on how we do business.[/b]
      About the only thing I can say to reassure you is most criminals are inherently lazy bastards (which may help to explain why they're criminals). You're right, though... you'll always run the risk of creating a better criminal. That being said, to exclude the civilian market categorically could be even more detrimental to YOUR profession, as there a hundreds of great minds in the private sector that continue to improve materials, training methods, you name it -- for both military and law enforcement applications.

      Anyway, you stay right on your soapbox... Your input is greatly valued by many here, including me!
      "Droll thing life is - that mysterious arrangement of merciless logic
      for a futile purpose. The most you can hope from it is some knowledge of
      yourself - that comes too late - a crop of unextinguishable regrets."
      -Joseph Conrad "Heart of Darkness"

      Comment


      • #18
        Actually Mr. Purple, if you had paid attention in high school science you could make your own explosives. This is why its important to understand that you will never stop a determined terrorist who knows how to plan, prepare and execute a terrorist act. Its the sloppy ones that get caught. There are books out there that teach you how to make C-4, blasting caps and just about anything else you want to make....its like someone else already posted, most of this info is already in print.[/b]
        Now, I never said I didn't know how to make the stuff, and I certainly did pay attention to my science professors.

        This is why its important to understand that you will never stop a determined terrorist who knows how to plan, prepare and execute a terrorist act.[/b]
        Do you really believe that there will come a time where the preferred method of the terrorist is done via long range sniping over the somewhat random but always devastating pipe bomb (one of which requires YEARS of training, the other requiring a smear of match heads stuffed in a piece of metal pipe... something accomplished by plenty of youths with one extra chromosome all the time)?
        "Droll thing life is - that mysterious arrangement of merciless logic
        for a futile purpose. The most you can hope from it is some knowledge of
        yourself - that comes too late - a crop of unextinguishable regrets."
        -Joseph Conrad "Heart of Darkness"

        Comment


        • #19
          I personally have mixed emotions on this topic.
          I have been a hunter and shooter most of my life, and obviously a civilian before I entered the LEO field.
          From a civilian's standpoint, a class that would teach extreme rifle accuracy at long ranges would be of great benefit to most hunters and shooting enthusiasts. Most avid shooters and hunters I know, would love a class that made them better shots. However, a "class" isn't always the answer. We all know that there is no substitute for trigger time and well spent practice at the range. Surgically accurate long range shooting is a perishable skill that requires practice, and lots of it, to achieve the kind of accuracy required by snipers. Like Thomas said, Range estimation, ballistics, and principles of marksmanship are already out there for hunters/shooters, as is most general information on sniping. John Plaster and others have fairly advanced information available to all in their books.
          From an LEO standpoint, I have another view.
          Most civilians that would attend such classes are law abiding gun owners, shooters and hunters trying to improve their skills. However, we all know there are a few exceptions.
          I used to do some uniformed, off-duty work in a large local gunshop/indoor range, working in the shop providing a security presence, and firearms instruction. Several times we arrested convicted felons that came into the store to shoot one of the rental guns in the cabinet. Some that had serious violent felony backgrounds. It was hard to rent a gun to someone it was obvious shouldn't have one, or one that you just had a bad feeling about, just by the way they talked, the questions they asked about "what kind of damage this gun or that bullet would do to somebody". Most were honest citizens that came in to sport shoot, but a few others had a screw loose. Even with a uniformed Deputy behind the counter, convicted felons came in to shoot. Those kind of people just don't care. They don't play by the same set of rules the rest of us do.
          As a sniper instructor, I can't even imagine having to teach anyone and everyone that signed up for the class the ins and outs of sniping. Long range competition/hunting marksmanship is one thing, but "Sniping" in it's truest sense is something else entirely. Most civilians have no need for that type/level of training. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to teach long range shooting skills to serious hunters or competition shooters, and do so often. But teaching a "Sniper school" for civilians I have issues with.
          I would not want to be responsible for teaching the skills to someone who years down the road, employed the skills I taught them to kill a cop, their wife's new boyfriend, or go nuts with a rifle at work or a college somewhere. And how do you seperate the honest shooters from the potential nut cases? You can't. Like someone said, a simple background check won't weed out the nuts.
          I've been involved in several officer involved shootings, the most recent about two weeks ago. On a K9 track into the woods at 3 AM, I was shot at by a nut case with a scoped rifle that had just killed his wife's boyfriend and burned the house down. If he'd have had formal training in hides, or precision shooting skills, especially on moving targets, I might not be writing this post.
          You're not going to stop the guys that are hell-bent on killing people, or true terrorists. After all, WE trained the terrorist pilots that hijacked the planes that took out the World Trade Center, and Pentagon. The training and information is out there if you really want it. But if you can prevent one mass killing at a school, workplace, or wherever, I'm for it.
          Imagine a guy that goes off the deep end some night, and holds responding officers at bay, 500 or more yards away with a scoped rifle, and the training we gave him. Most street cops aren't equipped, trained or prepared for that. Lots of innocent people would be injured/killed before a properly trained LEO sniper could arrive and address the situation. It would only take one incident before we regretted our decision to teach such classes.
          I'm all for teaching competition long-range shooting, and extreme range hunting skills, but teaching "Sniper" skills or anything that even resembles our tactics to the mass population, or anyone that wants it, I'm adamantly against. Unfortunately, there's a fine line between the two worlds, since so many of the skills of long range shooting/hunting, and sniping overlap. The only difference in some cases is the game in the crosshairs.
          It's sad that many have to be penalized by the actions of a few, but I don't think teaching true "Sniper skills" to the general public is a good idea.
          We've all agreed that tactics/information such as eluding K9 detector dogs was information that should be in sucured "Duty only" areas of the site for obvious reasons. It's just my opinion, but other shared training/tactics/information also fall under that heading, and should be carefully secured away from the public eye for the same reason. This would certainly include teaching the general public our sniper tactics and training.
          For the civilian shooter that wants to improve his long range skills, there's only one real way to do it. Spend time on the range, or in the field practicing long range shooting. That's what we have to do too.
          Just my thoughts and opinions on the matter.

          JB
          "We stand at the ready at Hell's front door. We are the sharpest, and most potent arrow in the quiver of last resort and upon us hangs the weight of being the final option. When it cannot otherwise be done, we are called. When lives are at stake and the specter of death roams freely, we are put into the fray. We go once more into the breach where others fear to tread. We do what others won't, or can't, and we are allowed no errors. For us mistakes mean death. We must train as if our lives and the lives of others hang in the balance for indeed they truly do. Spend this day and every other seeking perfection in the warrior arts."

          Comment


          • #20
            Well said, JB. I think I can understand where you and Alph are coming from... the dilemma is always as it will be, of course. It's the same thing that occurs with the 2nd Amendment debates. Thank God I don't have to be the one responsible for drawing the line, as the conflict between what should be available to Joe Citizen and what should be banned is a nasty one.
            "Droll thing life is - that mysterious arrangement of merciless logic
            for a futile purpose. The most you can hope from it is some knowledge of
            yourself - that comes too late - a crop of unextinguishable regrets."
            -Joseph Conrad "Heart of Darkness"

            Comment


            • #21
              [/b]

              I would state that this information is already in civilain hands. Do a bit of surfing and you will find lengthy, in depth discussion on each of your topics.

              Or simply wait for "Law and Order" to feature it . ::chuckling::

              Comment


              • #22
                I would state that this information is already in civilian hands. Do a bit of surfing and you will find lengthy, in depth discussion on each of your topics.[/b]
                I know that's true, but it is still bad form to teach it. Just cuz someone reads it doesn't mean that they can grasp it or do it right. To be trained means to be made sure that you know the drill, you are critiqued and are tested on it. In otherwords, when you leave the school you know your stuff. Big difference over reading it.

                You can read all you want about Parris Island, but it won't make you a Marine.....
                www.precision-applications.com

                It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                Comment


                • #23
                  Â* Â* You can read all you want about Parris Island, but it won't make you a Marine.....
                  <div align='right'><{POST_SNAPBACK}>
                  [/b][/quote]


                  He is right you know....you have to join the Navy to be a Marine.
                  Life's Tough, but it's a lot tougher if you are stupid.
                  John Wayne

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Current stats for the Poll, if you have not voted, drop in and cast a quick vote..


                    Current Numbers:
                    Yes, responsible civilians should be able to attend any type of training they want if the resourc 66.74 % (305 votes)

                    No, sniping and sniper information should be kept to police and military only. 14.00 % (64 305 votes)

                    Yes, but without learning all of the current operational tactics 8.75 % (40 305 votes)

                    Yes, but with some limits (please explain) 7.00 % (32 305 votes)

                    No, there is no reason why a “civilian” needs to know anything that has to do with sniping. 3.50 % (16 305 votes)


                    Total votes: 457
                    Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                    Thomas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      He is right you know....you have to join the Navy to be a Marine[/b]
                      Brrrrrrrrr,, did the temp just drop in here or what!!!
                      "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear"
                      Ambrose Redmoon

                      "To the American soldier, whose fidelity, patriotism, and valor have made this land the last best hope of earth."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        That's the MEN"S DEPARTMENT of the Navy!
                        www.precision-applications.com

                        It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                        Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                        "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          3 more days to get your jabs in, then the topic changes.
                          Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                          Thomas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            The vote is actually skewed. I tried to vote and got a 405 ERROR Method blah blah....
                            Froze program and all. Tried a second time and got suspicious and tried a third but vote the worst of the list and behold, my vote was registered. (cough*rigged*cough) Then I realized this is a site about shooting and such, not machine language and programming. (right? come on, tell me I'm right on at least that?) Worst mistake is I did not document the problem so we are left to just my word.


                            I feel that it is much more than shooting skills that could make a sniper. Or even a marksman for that matter. I would jump at the opportunity to improve my skill and if I glean some extra information, that would be great. There is quite a bit of information around, some questionable perhaps and there is no substitution for experience. Being involved with shooting sports since early teens, I have seen first hand many people unsafe with a butter-knife let alone a firearm. Seen way too many close calls with public ranges.
                            As for the operational side, that is a polarizing subject. Bad call either way, trade (so to speak) secrets revealed could jeopardize either our boys in green or LEO doing a righteous duty. Other side is in time of Gov't agents running amok (not like that has ever happened before, but it could) giving 'civies' a sporting chance.
                            'The path to enlightenment is littered with the bodies of the ignorant.'- Miyamoto Musashi

                            Accounts of demonstrations by 2nd Expedition gunner, Prussian Army veteran, Louis Zindel's skill:
                            Charles Preuss, August 10, 1843:
                            Shooting buffalo with the howitzer is a cruel but amusing sport.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well I'm going to jump in here and give my .02 cents as well. Briefly I think civilians should be allowed to receive sniper trainning up to the point of tactics that are new and not easily found on the internet ect.

                              An informed public is important. If the public can better understand what it is that you do. They will support you when the chips are down. I for example have the highest repect for law enforcement and our military. Dont forget that when it is time to vote for a president or lower levels of goverment, I'm voting for people that are going to take care of our Le/Mil in terms of spending on equipment and getting them the best training that they can receive. I represent a civ. that understands what you do, and how hard your job is.

                              I belong to this forum because of my interest in snipping, long range shooting, tactical rifles, ect. There are going to be crazy people in the world and you cant tell by looking at them or running a background check when they are going to snap next. You can certainly weed out those that dont belong to begin with. I think that it is still true that there have not been any murders commited by people who legally own machine guns. So background checks in some form are working. Maybe you have to make it a lot of hoops for civilians to jump through before being cleared for such courses. Maybe like the $200 tax stamp?

                              Some of our best wackos in our history were former military personnal. Oswald=Marine, Wittman=Marine, Muhammed=Army so who is really the threat here? Civilians or former military? Just kidding. We live in a free society why should I be punished for a mistake that someone else makes. Not one person here has mentioned that we teach civilians in the tactics of close quarters fighting? That could be a real threat to LE when serving a warrent?

                              Civilians often times lead the way in product development for snipers. Getting them involved can help you. If I'm not mistaken the AICS stock was developed by a former olympic shooter. This is one of the most popular stocks used by snipers around the world.

                              Sorry that this whole thing rambled and went different routes but I would really like to be able to take one of these coures not because I want to go on a killing spree but because it interests me and it would help me become a better shooter.
                              I think a weekend of stalking could be a lot of fun.

                              Mike

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Final Statistics:

                                Yes, responsible civilians should be able to attend any type of training they want if the resource - votes: 419 (68.58%)

                                Yes, but with some limits (please explain) - votes: 42 (6.87%)

                                Yes, but without learning all of the current operational tactics - votes: 48 (7.86%)

                                No, there is no reason why a “civilian” needs to know anything that has to do with sniping. - votes: 18 (2.95%)

                                No, sniping and sniper information should be kept to police and military only. - votes: 84 (13.75%)
                                Knowledge comes from retaining what is learned,
                                Thomas

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