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  • READ ONLY -Good Backup Weapon?- READ ONLY

    Anyone ever consider a sub-machinegun as a backup as apposed to an M4?

  • #2
    Plenty of LEO Snipers carry SMG's as a backup, usually either the Colt Commando or the HK MP5. An MP5 with the collapsible stock, or maybe even a PDW, would be a nice little backup that won't weigh ya down too much.

    I know a Sniper with a local Sheriff's Office who carries a Glock 18 with a folding stock attached to it. Works very well.

    I knew of a USMC Vietnam War Sniper who carried an M3A1 "Greasegun" as his backup.

    If you're talking military, then you run into a few problems.

    First is lack of availability. There just ain't anywhere near as many SMG's in the "standard" US military as there are M4's. By standard I am excluding SpecOps type units who have a lot more freedom and flexibility with their equipment, as well as a lot more of the cool toys.

    Secondly, a pistol caliber SMG doesn't work too well against body armor.
    www.precision-applications.com

    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

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    • #3
      What about the new FN PS90?? I thought I had read that the 5.7x28 round had been developed specifically as a pistol cartridge SMG that would defeat body armor i.e. for anti-terrorist work. Of course the civilian market cannot purchase armor piercing ammo...but LE/Military can. FN also makes a semi auto pistol for this round.

      Just wondering if this animal has legs??


      Wayne

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      • #4
        In Boston the MP5 is the primary weapon of the state police. They should go with MP-40's!

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        • #5
          It was my understanding that FN had loaded this thing way down to the point it lost it's edge over comparable rounds in civilian applications. I can't find the source where I got that, but hopefully someone here knows for sure.
          "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

          "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

          "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

          "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

          Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

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          • #6
            Ouch, I remember some Swedish K's, LOL but it's been awhile.
            "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

            Training the US, one shooter at a time.






            http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

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            • #7
              Flea, when you were in, weren't they Swedish "E's"?
              "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

              "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

              "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

              "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

              Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Vince,
                I hope you don't take any offence to this and I really mean no disrespect but from the bottom of my heart ........BITE ME! Not on the left......not on the right........right in the groove!
                "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

                Training the US, one shooter at a time.






                http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  The military has gotten away from the pistol caliber subguns, they have no range for defense in the field, and over penetrate and deflect like billard balls at CQB range. Other than supressed modes really rather useless/dangerous compared to the M-4.

                  The P90 and the 5.7mm are intended to punch soft armor, the AP round is fair in use. The round is made with an aluminum and steel core designed to yaw early and transfer it's energy after punching the armor and entering the body. Take away the AP and use the training round or the new "civie" 5.7 rounds and you have a round similar to the .22WRM...not to effective on large targets at all. After all the whining about the 5.56x45mm I can't see all the people thinking this is a decent round for anything other than it's intended use with the original round...plus it's stock sights sux, lol. I do enjoy firing the P90 and the FiveseveN, rely on them to keep my hide in one piece, uh..never.

                  Hey Vern, carried a nice green painted Swedish K with a suppressor. Was the heat back then...still have a soft spot for the weapon Wonder why they only had a serial number on them...lol.

                  Take care...Jim
                  "A FAMILY THAT STANDS TOGETHER AND FIGHTS TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER" The combined Dutch Family...


                  "But I've a rendezvous with Death, at midnight in some flaming town, when spring trips north again this year, and I to my pledge word am true, I shall not fail that rendezvous"

                  Alan Seeger, KIA Belloy-en-Santerre 4 July 1916, Legion Entrangere, American poet.


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                  • #10
                    I've seen some sweet Swedish "K's." I saw something on TV a few years ago and it showed an element of the Swiss guards in dress uniforms with chrome Swedish K's!
                    Tons of Sterling L2A3 9mm subguns and Beretta Model 12S 9mm subguns floating around in Iraq. I even ran across a WWII-era Beretta Modelo 38 9mm subgun there.
                    "Kill evil. It's how quality of life is achieved. Carry on."---Ted Nugent

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey JY,

                      LOL, I remember that and the fact somehow on certain walks we took we also wore German uniforms and Chek boots. OOPS can I say that now? For three days before I got out I sat there in Batallion signing papers.

                      That Swedish K was really sweet especially with the suppressor, the boys down at Na Trang, tought me how to use the dang thing. That and knife fight they were the best. Hooking up with those guys early I'm sure kept me alive even when things got really crappy and hot. As long as you did what they said you'd go home.

                      Hats off the the "Green Hats"!

                      Regards, Vern
                      "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

                      Training the US, one shooter at a time.






                      http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [quote]
                        The P90 and the 5.7mm are intended to punch soft armor, the AP round is fair in use. The round is made with an aluminum and steel core designed to yaw early and transfer it's energy after punching the armor and entering the body. Take away the AP and use the training round or the new "civie" 5.7 rounds and you have a round similar to the .22WRM...not to effective on large targets at all. After all the whining about the 5.56x45mm I can't see all the people thinking this is a decent round for anything other than it's intended use with the original round...plus it's stock sights sux, lol. I do enjoy firing the P90 and the FiveseveN, rely on them to keep my hide in one piece, uh..never.[/b]

                        Thank you for putting that errrmmm a lot nicer then I would have. I have to fully agree with JY here, if you go look at the ballistics of this round it is fun to shoot but about worthless, for defense/offense.... A ton of hype in the news about it is what got the big press on it because FN in all their bloody wisdom, posted on the civilian side of their paget that the round was capable of AP. Well this brought them under the eye of BATFE (Which I still think should be a convince store not a government org. ) and mixed with the claims that you could enguage someone with a pistol at 200 yards... That mixed with the $1200 price tag on the pistol, and who knows for the P90, and the REALLY expensive ammo... Well you see where I am going with that.


                        JY,
                        What ever happened to the big push with the 45's a few years back with weapons like the HK UMP and such? Did they just sort of fall off, or were there technical issues?
                        CelticRaven

                        -- Poor is the country with no heroes and worse yet, is the country that forgets its heroes.

                        Plan for what CAN happen, not what HAS happened.
                        --CelticRaven

                        The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
                        --Thomas Jefferson

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                        • #13
                          Hi CR;

                          Interest in subguns is what has fallen off. You can put a rifle caliber round in the same package size now, such as 5.56mm and 6.8mm, not to mention the .50 Beowolf and .458 SOCOM. Pistol caliber rounds in anything but a pistol is kind of a waste, a pistol is a secondary weapon inspite of what some Chairborne types think. Why handicap yourself with a primary weapon firing a secondary round?

                          Hope the 5.7 ammo gets cheaper and some decent bullets get loaded, I think whistle pig(marmot, ground hog) hunting with the FiveseveN pistol would be a blast. P. Dogs with a PS90, lol, look out dog town!

                          Take care...Jim
                          "A FAMILY THAT STANDS TOGETHER AND FIGHTS TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER" The combined Dutch Family...


                          "But I've a rendezvous with Death, at midnight in some flaming town, when spring trips north again this year, and I to my pledge word am true, I shall not fail that rendezvous"

                          Alan Seeger, KIA Belloy-en-Santerre 4 July 1916, Legion Entrangere, American poet.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi vern;

                            Glad you didn't mention those ..er...unique uniforms and boots. You get to the little room in Oakland with no windows? LOL, spent a few days there

                            Mitch WerBell used to bring all kinds of suppressed goodies in country for us to try out on his Ingrams I still think one of the best was the old M3A1 with a Sionics suppressor, two on an ambush pretty much eliminated a platoon size patrol before they even knew they were being hit...though they did fling a lot of crud back at you out of the breech, lefty ya know Course the MP5SD does that too, for a long time I looked more like a coal miner than military
                            Take care, my friend...Jim
                            "A FAMILY THAT STANDS TOGETHER AND FIGHTS TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER" The combined Dutch Family...


                            "But I've a rendezvous with Death, at midnight in some flaming town, when spring trips north again this year, and I to my pledge word am true, I shall not fail that rendezvous"

                            Alan Seeger, KIA Belloy-en-Santerre 4 July 1916, Legion Entrangere, American poet.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mitch WerBell used to bring all kinds of suppressed goodies in country for us to try out on his Ingrams[/b]
                              Funny the names that pop up around here! I'm good friends with the WerBell family. The range I do all my shooting and instructing on is his old Sionics training facility in Powder Springs, GA.

                              On my old SWAT team we had a suppressed 10/22 that he had made for us (before my time). In the department inventory we had about a dozen suppressed MAC10's that Mitch WerBell Sr had donated to us way back when.
                              www.precision-applications.com

                              It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                              Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                              "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                              Comment

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