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  • READ ONLY -lots of play in the bolt- READ ONLY

    I've got a Rem 700 PSS 308. I bought it new a little over a year ago. I shot it for a few months then took it to get bedded, trigger polished and blue printed, recrowned, and the bolt sleeved. When I took it to the smith he showed me with a dial caliper that there was several hundredths or thousands of play in the bolt. He told me that he could sleeve the bolt and that tighten up the tolerance. After I got it back I could see there was something like epoxy in the top of the reciever, and the bolt was obviously tighter. But over the past year I think whatever was added has come off. So can I get a new bolt or what can I do to get the bolt tighter, so I will have more consistency?

    Thanks,
    Chris

  • #2
    I see no reason why you couldn't purchase a new bolt, have it hand lapped etc, then shoot the smith who put epoxy on your bolt in the first place!

    I've never heard of that, but then again, I'm not a smith... With that much play, I would have just replaced the bolt.

    I don't know everyone on this site, but I would take this question to "flea," I would trust anything he told me to do! Usngunner might also know...

    If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's just my opinion, hope it isn't a receiver problem. Good luck & good shooting!

    Respectfully,
    JS
    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams

    "Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security." -- Ben Franklin

    "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson

    Any man or woman who may be asked in this century what they did to make life worthwhile in their lifetime....can respond with a great deal of pride and satisfaction, "I served in the United States Marine Corps!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Holy crap, somebody put me in the same sentence with Flea!

      Oh yeah, Reality .

      I'm not sure on that one, the sleeved recievers that I've seen were metal inserts epoxied into place, not just epoxy to build up the inside of the receiver. I'd kick this one to Jered.
      "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

      "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

      "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

      "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

      Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Metal insert, that's what I couldn't remember... Doh! See gunner, your smarter then you look. I have gotten some of the best advice from your average shooter, (not implying your average) you could be a gold medalist for all I know, just don't sell yourself short...

        Sometimes I get an epiphany, other times its a "brain fart!" LOL... Ya just got to give it your best shot, no pun intended...

        I also thought he had it built up with epoxy and no metal sleeve, but I'm still at a loss as to his best route besides selling it for a better stick?

        Sure hope someone can help you with this one, wish a few pics would help since we can't work the action... Again, good luck & good shooting!

        Respectfully,
        JS
        "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams

        "Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither liberty nor security." -- Ben Franklin

        "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." --Thomas Jefferson

        Any man or woman who may be asked in this century what they did to make life worthwhile in their lifetime....can respond with a great deal of pride and satisfaction, "I served in the United States Marine Corps!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Is this play in the bolt when it is closed in the final lockup position?

          Jimro
          "How you train is EXACTLY how you fight" Col (Ret) Robert B. Nett, awarded Medal of Honor

          Comment


          • #6
            The play is in the rear of the action where the bolt first enters the action.

            Chris

            Comment


            • #7
              You mean when the bolt is open? or closed?
              CelticRaven

              -- Poor is the country with no heroes and worse yet, is the country that forgets its heroes.

              Plan for what CAN happen, not what HAS happened.
              --CelticRaven

              The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
              --Thomas Jefferson

              Comment


              • #8
                When the bolt is closed. If you push down ont he bolt shroud you can see some play in the bolt.

                Chris

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is it affecting your accuracy?

                  When the bolt is in it's final lockup position the locking lugs are vertical and the ejector button is pushing the brass forward in the chamber, which also pushes the bolt backwards. The other mechanical contacts affecting the bolt right now is the trigger mechanism (also pushing the bolt backward) and extractor (could either be pushing, pulling or neutral depending on rim thickness).

                  What sleeving the bolt does is reduce the amount of variance that these forces can exert, making the final lockup possibly more consistant. The real question is whether sleeving the bolt improved accuracy or just improved your confidence in your equipment.

                  A few thousandths of play at the rear of the action is reduced to a mere fraction of that at the front of the action, just like lifting one end of a 12 foot two by four a foot off the ground only moves the other end a small amount, only one inch at one foot. A six inch bolt with 6 thousandths of play at the rear only has 1 thousandths of play one inch from fulcrum point, assuming that the fulcrum point is the front of the bolt.

                  I wouldn't bother resleeving the bolt until your next rebuild, if it isn't affecting the accuracy of the rifle. If it is affecting the rifles accuracy, get your stick worked on.

                  Jimro
                  "How you train is EXACTLY how you fight" Col (Ret) Robert B. Nett, awarded Medal of Honor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chris,
                    I've had this play in every Remington I've ever owned. If it doesn't effect the accuracy I'd just shoot it. When you place a loaded round in the chamber does the play go away? Usually when you close the bolt on a loaded round that play is gone. Thats all the counts. IMHO

                    Most of the time you will need to round in the chamber to put pressure againsn't the bolt lugs, for finally lock up.

                    flea
                    "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

                    Training the US, one shooter at a time.






                    http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Flea,
                      Ya there is still play with a round in the chamber. I've noticed that it isn't as consistent as it used to be. I called the smith back and he told me that last year he had a bad batch of epoxy, poor adhesion, about the time he did my job, and he found out later. He told me that what my problem was that the play was causing the locking lug on the top to almost come completely out of contact, because the trigger mechanism would put presure up on the back of the bolt. Then when you fire the round it releases the presure off the back of the bolt and the this SLAMS the lug back into contact and puts a lot of stress on the reciever and sends all those forces down the barrel which throws off the harmonics. Anyway I trust this guy, after all he builds 1000's of dollar 1000 yard match rifles. So he knows his stuff. He told me to bring it back and he will redo the sleeve. He told me that he has done sleeve jobs on many rifles and they have been working for years. Just my luck I guess.
                      Hopefully that will take care of it.

                      Chris

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I thought I'd add my two cents on this subject. That's probably all it's worth to because this is more of an opinion topic. Yes it is true that with a tight and stress free lock up the gun "should" shoot better. However......it really doesn't matter that much. What's more important is that the lugs and lug seats are true to each other and mate up well. The ejector won't make a difference that's easily measured. If the gun is set up correctly that is.

                        The short responce would be that there are a lot of crap actions out there that shoot. If the right guy is working on your stick he understands or should understand how to make a big pile of chicken crap into a nice chicken salad.

                        You can spend a lot of time and money on a factory action or just save your money and get a BR action if that's what you are trying to build. If you look at the over all money you'll spend verses the accuracy difference, you'll soon see that there isn't really any huge difference in the end price of a highly tuned terd and the begining price of a quality piece. I feel like we build a pretty high quality product here on a consistent basis. For this reason it's a lot easier to compare all of these products against one another because they all shoot well. The place where you will start to see your money's worth is at long range. If you have good enough conditions to accurately test a factory rebuilt rifle against the newest latest and greatest you will soon find out that (if both where built well) there won't be a ton of difference between the two. Usually there is a noticeable difference. Now the questions is this:

                        Are you here to run the race or win the race

                        I think a person should really come to grips with where they want to before they can make a decision on what to build.

                        Ok sorry guys.........I got carried away and got way of subject. It was on my mind so I felt like sharing.

                        I'll end with my opinion. I think messing with the bolt other than to true it up is a waste of money and time. It also opens the door to a potential mistake if done incorrectly. Sleeving the bolt is just one more thing that could go wrong in your time of need. Be it on the bench or in the field.

                        I'll also say that it's good to experiment with stuff like this because if we don't then we will never be able to improve. Unfortunately I've already learned my lesson on this one.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree, I have one that rattles like a BB in a boxcar and it wins everything I put it in front of. Go figure.
                          "with the patience of an oyster....I watch and wait"

                          Training the US, one shooter at a time.






                          http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hey Jered good to see you on the boards. I had a great time chatting it up with you at SHOT and the GA/Badger party. This is Rob from Snipers Hide, big bald guy , if you didn't recognize the name.

                            I agree about the play in the bolt. Both my rifles have some play in them but they both shoot great. I wouldn't want them too tight as they go out and get dirty and I don't want them locking up on me. Bottom line for me is if they shoot I don't care if they had play or not. But it's your rifle so have him fix it.

                            If you could some time post some pics of where he was putting the epoxy and what the job he did looks like. I'd be interested to see it.
                            Rob

                            www.teamblaster.net

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just my opinion, but this whole "epoxy in the receiver bridge" thing sounds mighty shaky to me. Epoxy is not "bearing surface material" and that's what that application amounts to.

                              I have never seen this method, or even heard of doing it that way until right now, and I have looked at a slew custom rifles and have been into precision rifles for a long time.

                              Then, the "bad batch of epoxy just when your gun was here . . . " is the icing on the cake. To me, the guy's credibility went (completely) south just when he said that.

                              As said above, the actual value of such sleeving is debateable and certainly in a tactical rifle, the lost clearances may even prove detrimental to reliable operation. If it's that demanding, a custom action IS the answer. A lot of other things have to be just right before any real benefit is realized by doing this procedure. I have several custom rifles lacking this step that still manage to shoot to 1/4-3/8 moa reliably, probably my personal limit anyway . . . .

                              AFAIK, "real", "precision", "professional" bolt sleeving deal is usually done in one of two ways, but BOTH involve effectively sleeving the bolt itself and nothing is (ever) done to the receiver.

                              The first method is to turn a small recess on the bolt body where the closed bolt engages the rear receiver bridge. This recess is a few thousandths deep, and about 1/2" to 3/4" wide. Into this recess, a slightly oversize steel split bushing is closely fitted to the bolt, and epoxied or welded into place. This split bushing, now (permanently) surrounding the bolt, is turned to the desired diameter to remove unnecessary play. This is TRUE sleeving, and it is commonly done and easily recognised.

                              The second method I have seen, and that is used on a custom rifle I have now, is to agressively knurl the same area of the bolt. This knurling raises metal and effectively increases the bolt's diameter where the knurl takes place. Once sufficient metal has been displaced to support a bearing surface, the knurled portion is turned down to the desired diameter to remove unnecessary play. I personally consider this the "cheapo" approach, but opinions do vary.

                              Some operating clearance is required, and so there will be a certain amount of slop. There is a limit to how bad this play can be, if you are concerned, I'd find another (precision) smith and let him look at it, see if it's bad enough to worry about. The big deal is "How does it shoot?", in any case.
                              Ed

                              The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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