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Army JAG oversteps bounds and screws up

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  • #16
    And not to mention the fact that we can legally use anything we want against terrorists, as opposed to the armies of other nations. The "no hollowpoints" ban only applies to signatories of the Geneva Accords, IIRC.

    Cheers,
    --Hawk
    There are few problems a well-placed 308 cannot cure. --- Hawk

    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the War Room! --- President Merkin Muffley in Dr. Strangelove

    Rocket Science is much more fun when you actually have rockets! --- USN Recruiting Commercial

    A little revolution now and then is a good thing --- Thomas Jefferson

    Only the dead have seen an end to war --- Plato

    "In Ireland, in Lebanon, in Palestine & Berkeley, Patty Hurst, heard the burst, of Roland's Thompson gun & bought it!!!" --- The Late Warren Zevon, Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner

    In the 1500's, the Roman Catholic Church sold indulgences to forgive sin. In the 21st century, we call these carbon offsets. ---Hawk

    �Fight like a man, so you will not have to die like a dog� --- Calico Jack Rackham's Mistress

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    • #17
      Anyone else catch this:
      "She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."[/b]
      The legality of the SMK was decided decades ago.
      [/b]

      Thats what i thought. Sorry, Im a little late on the topic, but I remember reading that this was an issue a long while back in history. No reason it should have ever come up again.

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      • #18
        I like the Washington Times, it's damn fine right wing rhetoric They do think highly of Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham.

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        • #19
          well no one is really going to know anytime soon whether or not this story is real... JAG judgments aren't exactly public domain
          "Give me an army of West Point graduates and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies and I'll win a War!" George S. Patton

          Everything I needed to know about islam I learned on 9/11.

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          • #20
            I think moon's son owns Kahr arms. sorry kinda random. Anyways I hope it is an overblown story, but would not be suprised if it was some paper pusher trying to make a name for themself.

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            • #21
              Hey Pete,
              Yeah, I read the thread over there on lightfighter, and hoenstly thought it was just a SNAFU on a unit level. Cyclops and some of the others had things well in hand, with getting the kid the documantation he required. Maybe I misread it, but I didn't realize it went out threater wide...How come I'm not surprised?
              Respectfully,
              Harry
              "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
              "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
              "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

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              • #22

                [quote]
                I sold my Kahr K-9 when I found out. It sucked anyway. Trigger pull was a biyatch and couldn't be corrected.[/b]
                Hey Connie,
                For shame ...Kahrs rock...I've owned a few and they were all excellent. Respectfully,
                Harry
                "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
                "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
                "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

                Comment


                • #23
                  [quote]
                  Naw... YOUR Khar rocked. Mine sucked.

                  I replaced it with an HK Tac 45. Better choice. Bigger bullets. [/b]
                  Hey Connie,
                  I can deffinitely appreciate and support that choice. Respectfully,
                  Harry
                  "It's better to live one day as a lion, than one hundred years as a sheep", Old Roman Proverb.
                  "For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know", Author Unknown.
                  "Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!", Shakespeare, Julius Ceaser, Act III, Scene I.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    From corresponding with HOG's on the ground in Iraq (and some stateside at some of the Schools), so far it sounds like this event went down pretty much like the article said it did.

                    I don't think this story in any way sounds like an exaggeration. It sounds exactly like the military and the way it operates, to me.

                    From corresponding with HOG's on the ground in Iraq (and some stateside at some of the Schools), so far it sounds like this event went down pretty much like the article said it did.

                    I don't think this story in any way sounds like an exaggeration. It sounds exactly like the military and the way it operates, to me.

                    I can understand that you have concerns as to the story's verisimilitude, but can you actually outright state that it is a piece of "falsehood hacking", with no proof to the contrary?
                    www.precision-applications.com

                    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

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                    • #25
                      I'll have to respectfully disagree on soldiers not knowing that JAG's can't give orders. A JAG is a commissioned officer, as such I thought they could issue orders.

                      If I had a read a memo from a JAG that was a commissioned officer, especially if they were a field grade officer, I would take it as the latest military law and go with it. I'm talking about if this had happened while I was on active duty. I would not know that a JAG was overstepping their bounds by issuing such an order. The intricacies of military law and jurisprudence. We received all kinds of stupid orders when I was in the Corps. Where never knew where they originated from, we just obeyed 'em. Want me to list some of the assinine orders we operated under in Somalia?

                      Am I the only military person here who didn't know that a JAG officer can't issue orders to line units? If I'm just a dumba$$ then please let me know, but I honestly did not know this. Now, keep in mind, that in Somalia we were constantly getting stupid orders and the name "JAG" was thrown around all the time.

                      I have spoken to a buddy of mine who was the guy who got me into being a Scout-Sniper. When I was a boot Pfc, he was a Cpl and an experience S-S. He later got out of the Corps, went to law school, and has been back in the Corps for about 4yrs now as a JAG officer. From what he has been able to find out (he is stateside) the overall story is true, he just doesn't know any of the fine details to it.
                      www.precision-applications.com

                      It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                      Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                      "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        No, you're not the only one. Units sometimes had them attached to them in the field, and their word was law, no pun intended. If they said no go, it was no go. A commander would be one ballsy SOB to take an advisement from JAG and trash it, if they were right, oops.
                        "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

                        "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

                        "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

                        "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

                        Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

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                        • #27
                          Totally off track but run that pistol a bunch Connie. I shot USPs at 2 different schools, and without a doubt they were the worst pieces of crap I have ever shot (including possibly the P92 that I carried). I love the P7 series, possibly one of the best and fastest pistols ever made, but..... Could have just been me, but as always, opinions are simply that.
                          Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
                          -Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955

                          Here, hold my trophy while I kiss your girlfriend. -NoFear Gear 1996

                          They do not teach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose. They do not teach that His Pity allows them to drop their jobs when they dam'-well choose. As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark and desert they stand, Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's day may be long in the land
                          -Rudyard Kipling in "The Sons of Martha" (a poem about warriors

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                          • #28
                            Here is an update to the story.

                            Inside the Ring
                            By Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough
                            January 27, 2006

                            Sniper punished
                            The Army has cleared a sniper in Iraq of violating operational security rules in helping to educate a judge advocate general (military lawyer) about the legality of open-tip bullets used by snipers to shoot insurgents who are killing American and allied troops.
                            However, the sniper, Sgt. Arthur J. Hushen, is continuing to face retaliation for blowing the whistle on an improper order for snipers to stop using the highly-effective M118LR ammunition in Iraq because it was thought to be an illegal hollow-point bullet. He was recently forced to move to a tent for "outcasts," said his wife, Sherry.
                            Sgt. Hushen recounted in a statement how he challenged the 4th Infantry Division lawyer, a woman identified only as "Maj. Card," after he obtained information from an Internet sniper forum showing that the bullets had been judged legal for use for years.
                            "Maj. Card stated that the hollow-point ammo was illegal," Sgt. Hushen wrote. "I informed her that there was a memo put out ... several years ago stating that hollow-tip had been deemed legal."
                            Maj. Card replied that she had never heard of the memo, but after documentation was presented to her, she reversed course.
                            "Maj. Card informed me that I was not a lawyer and she did not work for me," Sgt. Hushen said, noting that the lawyer then agreed that in her legal opinion the M118LR was legal and said she would send out an e-mail to the executive officers.
                            It was after the exchange that Sgt. Hushen was accused of violating security rules for identifying his 4th Infantry Division unit on the Internet. However, he was cleared of that accusation after his statement.
                            But he is continuing to be punished by senior enlisted and officers for raising the legal issues, we are told.
                            "I needed the ammo to accomplish my sniper missions," he said. "I didn't quit when I was told the ammo was illegal because I knew it was not."
                            Sgt. Hushen said he was punished by his platoon leader by being relieved from his sniper duties and removed as a team leader.
                            "I no longer have anyone to lead and train. I believe that this is the worst punishment that could have happened," he said.

                            As I posted before, the guy had gone though his chain of command, but I guess he got no backing and took matters into his own hands. All because he needed the right ammo for his mission.
                            "Learning to function under all types of situations and always maintaining good marksmanship skills is imperative to effective performance with the precision rifle."

                            SniperSustainment)

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                            • #29
                              Well, I think we have enough corroborating evidence at this point to lead us to a pretty good conclusion that this one is a true piece of valid news and not a "piece of falsehood hacking".

                              Apparently, we also have verification that the JAG in question was a female, and a field grade officer to boot.

                              When I was a Scout-Sniper in the Corps, if I was given an order by a Major who also happens to be a JAG, I would follow it. It's either that or the brig.

                              The entire "hollow-point" bullet discussion, in re to the SMK, was hashed out over a decade ago, and decided at levels far above a Major. She should have done a little investigation (or, more likely, had her aides do some investigation), then this entire episode would not have happened.

                              Heck, I haven't been on active duty for over 10yrs and I have a copy of the official legal brief confirming the legality of the SMK that I could have loaned her. I can have it in my hands in less than 5 minutes. It's a shame she didn't put a little more effort into her work.

                              I wonder which way her politics lean?
                              www.precision-applications.com

                              It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                              Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                              "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

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