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  • Army JAG oversteps bounds and screws up

    http://washingtontimes.com/national/200601...12132-3551r.htm

    An Army judge advocate general (JAG) temporarily banned Army and Marine Corps snipers from using a highly accurate open-tip bullet. The JAG, we are told, mistakenly thought the open-tip round was the same as hollow-point ammunition, which is banned. The original open-tip was known as Sierra MatchKing and broke all records for accuracy in the past 30 years.
    The difference between the open-tip and the hollow point is that the open tip is a design feature that improves accuracy while the hollow point is designed for increasing damage when it hits a target.
    About 10 days ago, the Army JAG in Iraq ordered all snipers to stop using the open-tip 175-grain M118LR bullet, claiming, falsely, it was prohibited. Instead of the open-tip, snipers were forced to take M-60 machine gun rounds out of belts and use them instead.
    The order upset quite a few people here and in Iraq who said the JAG ignored the basic principle of every military lawyer that there is a presumption of legality for all issued weapons or ammunition that are made at the military service level at the time they are acquired.
    "She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."
    After Army lawyers were finally alerted to the JAG's action, the order was lifted and the JAG was notified that the open tip was perfectly legal for use by snipers. However, the reversal was followed by the Army officials' taking retaliation against a sniper who blew the whistle on the bogus order. The sniper lost his job over a security infraction in reporting the JAG.
    www.precision-applications.com

    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

  • #2
    Yeah, right. Those "hollowpoints" just "aren't fair".

    Neither are roadside bombs, genocide, or airliner attacks on innocent civilians and their children first thing in the morning at work.

    When we get to this point, it really shouldn't matter anymore.
    "We stand at the ready at Hell's front door. We are the sharpest, and most potent arrow in the quiver of last resort and upon us hangs the weight of being the final option. When it cannot otherwise be done, we are called. When lives are at stake and the specter of death roams freely, we are put into the fray. We go once more into the breach where others fear to tread. We do what others won't, or can't, and we are allowed no errors. For us mistakes mean death. We must train as if our lives and the lives of others hang in the balance for indeed they truly do. Spend this day and every other seeking perfection in the warrior arts."

    Comment


    • #3
      I hope this case will be a reference for any future ideas JAGs might have, they have no business poking their noses into the combat practices of snipers, or anyone else serving.

      Comment


      • #4
        Anyone else catch this:
        "She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."[/b]
        The legality of the SMK was decided decades ago. I can't believe some pantywaist would attempt to make a decision like this (that is completely outside their jurisdiction to begin with) without checking the background on it. Did she think that the military purchased millions of these rounds without first confirming their legality? What an a** clown.

        What brought this to her attention anyways?
        www.precision-applications.com

        It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

        Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

        "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

        Comment


        • #5
          One thing I thought of was the arguments I read here about SMK's not being a good hunting round, lack of terminal ballistics etc.. What I mean is these bullets are considered inhumane by some hunters for use on large game. Wouldn't FMJ be even more inhumane if the kill zones were missed? (on large game) Match bullets are by far the best choice for those long shots.

          Are SMK's the bullets you're trained to use for combat purposes?

          Comment


          • #6
            If you're asking me, we didn't have the M118LR when I was in. All we had was the crappy M118.

            For LE work, we always trained with what we carried, which was 168grn SMK's. We used Fed and then switched to BH.
            www.precision-applications.com

            It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

            Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

            "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

            Comment


            • #7
              I also would really like to know what brought this up in the first place. Something stinks here, as Shep pointed this, this was a long ago resolved issue. Me thinks JAG needs an enema.
              "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

              "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

              "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

              "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

              Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Hah, well apparently people making decision about something they have no clue about happens all over the place. Like D.C. telling people how to live in *Insert almost any state*.

                I do find it funny that some JAG feels in necessary to limit the fighting capability... something tells me they weren't in the military before law school... Although I would be willing to bet she didn't hear "SMK" but more of "Hollow point boat tail" and might have been confused.
                "Give me an army of West Point graduates and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies and I'll win a War!" George S. Patton

                Everything I needed to know about islam I learned on 9/11.

                Comment


                • #9
                  SHE should be put on on charges, reduced in rank and tossed into a line unit!

                  DBCooper
                  ?Thought becomes action, if action is a result of thought, can action obtain the speed of thought??

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    SHE should be put on on charges, reduced in rank and tossed into a line unit![/b]
                    What did that poor line unit ever do to you!?
                    www.precision-applications.com

                    It's knowing that when I get up in the morning and my feet hit the floor, the Devil says, "Shit! He's awake!"

                    Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "We will shoot twice and go home."

                    "There are so many Russians, and our country so small, where will we find room to bury them all?" - anonymous Finnish soldier

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      YOU'RE RIGHT CMSHOOT ...... To ALL Line units here and OCONUS ...... I . ... request your forgiveness for my previous comment Reguarding the DumbAssed JAG B*&^%!!!!!


                      HOW ABOUT . . ..... ICELAND!

                      DBCooper
                      ?Thought becomes action, if action is a result of thought, can action obtain the speed of thought??

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And yet another example of lawyers doing what they do best.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OK here is the scoop on this story. There was a sniper that is in Iraq and he posted on the LightFighter forum that he was told by his unit supply SGT that he could not be issued the M118LR because according to what the Supply SGT told him was that the ammo was not for COMBAT. He posted because he needed help with some type of documation that the ammo was for combat. He went though his Chain of Command and he got no help. He then went to the JAG officer in question to inform her that the ammo was OK for combat. Well the JAG officer did not want to hear it and I guess the sniper went over her head. Well once the story broke I think the sniper got in trouble.

                          Here is a guy that needed some ammo to do his job (he said that they were planning on giving him linked 7.62 ammo for his M24) and when he gets all the information and some help from other personal in the Army, he is cutoff at the KNEES.

                          Now you know the REST of the story.
                          "Learning to function under all types of situations and always maintaining good marksmanship skills is imperative to effective performance with the precision rifle."

                          SniperSustainment)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That is freakin rediculous.
                            "Give me an army of West Point graduates and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies and I'll win a War!" George S. Patton

                            Everything I needed to know about islam I learned on 9/11.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Now how in the heck could the sniper get in trouble? It seems to me that if anybody is getting whacked it should be the jag. If he had not gone to here first, well, chain of command applies. But if the jag refused to discuss or research the issue further, it was his responsibility to purse the matter.
                              "Do the right thing even if it means dying like a dog when no one's there to see you do it." Vice Admiral James Stockdale, NAVY PILOT

                              "Honor, Integrity, Commitment to core values. When they become abstract concepts or "ideals", all is lost." Me.

                              "Character is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking." J.C. Watts

                              "I have never seen a projectile turn in flight and come back at the ship that fired it, I cannot however make that same statement regarding missiles." Me.

                              Deus lo vult! = "God wills it!"

                              Comment

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